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12.41 pm
The Minister for Transport in London (Ms Glenda Jackson): When the House last considered the Bill, the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) threatened me with a venomous campaign. If that threat was delivered today, it carried all the serpentine terror of attack by slow-worm. The hon. Gentleman was confused about the Bill's purpose. I was surprised that he should be critical of the changes made in Standing Committee; he clearly does not believe in a Committee stage for Bills.
The hon. Gentleman was critical of the Government for cutting the road building programme. As he knows, the Government made a clear commitment in our election manifesto that we would work within the financial limits set by the Conservative Government, who consistently cut the road building programme.
It was interesting to discover that the hon. Gentleman is pro roads and believes that road building is the way out of the desperate congestion that costs this country
£20 billion a year. We have yet to tot up the environmental costs of the failure of successive Conservative Administrations even to begin to define an integrated transport policy. We now clearly know where the shadow Minister and the Conservative party are coming from--they believe in building more roads, and they do not believe in a Committee stage for Bills. They appear to think that safety levels will be increased by building more roads and that we can clean up our airby building more roads.
The country has reason to be grateful, on this and other matters, to the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis), who has worked so closely with Friends of the Earth on the Bill. The country cannot continue as it is--there must be a reduction in road traffic. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generous words about me and, in particular, about my officials. His speech highlighted the importance of the Bill.
The hon. Gentleman touched on the improvements that there will undoubtedly be in road safety, health, quality of life and the undoubted economic benefits that will flow from reducing what seems to be an almost unstoppable rise in the amount of traffic on our roads. It has been estimated that, without a drastic change in policies, at the present rate of increase there will be an additional 42 per cent. of vehicles on our roads by 2010. However, as the House knows, the Government have made it abundantly clear that we intend to change those policies. We are firmly committed to the creation of an integrated transport policy and have made it clear that our White Paper on that policy will be published shortly. We have also made it clear that we regard targets across a range of issues for which the Government are responsible as essential in delivering the policies we believe the people of this country wish us to pursue.
The issue of targets and the absence of a defined target in the Bill has been touched on by almost every hon. Member who has spoken this morning, but the hon. Member for Ceredigion made the point especially clearly. It is one thing to have a target; even more important is how one achieves it. He listed some of the measures available to local and central Government not only to achieve a reduction in the amount of traffic on our roads but to deliver the polices that we have pledged to deliver.
The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington(Mr. Brake) gave the Bill a rather half-hearted welcome, but I know that, in the main, he supports the philosophy behind it. No one, either in or outside the House, doubts for a moment that any commitment made by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister will be kept.I regret that I cannot remember which Opposition Member referred to the Deputy Prime Minister wriggling on a hook. The idea that my right hon. Friend would wriggle in any situation is absurd, and the idea that any Opposition Member could catch him on a hook is equally absurd.
The hon. Member for Worthing, West (Mr. Bottomley) made a particularly thoughtful, informed and constructive speech. He referred to the enormous increase in traffic caused by parents taking their children to school. I am sure that all hon. Members acknowledge that parents' concerns for their children--concerns that often necessitate their taking their children to school--are not
related exclusively to the fear of road traffic accidents. There is undoubtedly a "stranger danger" element to parents' concerns.
The problem caused by the school run was also touched on by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), who is a sponsor of the Bill. I reassure him and the hon. Member for Worthing, West that it is Government policy to reduce parents' dependence on cars to take their children to school. That is why the Government are engaged in a cross-party exercise, which will inevitably produce policy, involving my Department, the Department of Health and the Department for Education and Employment. We hope not only to help local authorities but to define best practice on how to create safe routes so that there will be a reduction in the number of cars parked, often dangerously, outside school entrances. We want children to be given the freedom to walk and cycle, although we acknowledge that that can happen only when the routes are safe for them so to do.
The hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) and the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell) used this morning's debate to highlight particular constituency interests. Indeed, the right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the necessity for a bypass for his constituency--not only in his speech but, if I have counted correctly, in at least four interventions on other hon. Members. He knows that the Government have been engaged in a thorough roads review since we took office. As I have said, our White Paper on integrated transport will be published shortly, and the roads review will follow soon after.
Sir Nicholas Lyell:
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for dealing with the specific point that I raised. As I read it, the Bill encourages the Government to look at the environmental effects of bypasses in a constructive way rather than encouraging them not to build bypasses on the basis of a 1 per cent. overall reduction in road traffic. Does she agree with my interpretation?
Ms Jackson:
The Government require no encouragement to examine the environmental aspects of all our policies. One of the first actions of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on taking office was to combine the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment. We have a clear commitment that environmental concerns must inform all our policy decisions. As I have said in the House, the specific environmental benefits of bypasses will be judged case by case against the Government's five criteria for new road building. The environment is central to those criteria.
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) disputed not the legality, but the necessity, of Bills that, as he put it, were supported by single-interest groups, however well financed and popular. I found that somewhat surprising given the right hon. Gentleman's commitment to his own single-interest group--the Conservative party. I can understand his chagrin, because that single-interest group is markedly unpopular and less than well-financed and its last organised campaign, culminating on 1 May last year, received the most decisive rejection.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he had received few if any letters from constituents on the issue. That is hardly surprising if he is not prepared to support their concerns.
Mr. Nicholls:
I also heard the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst
Ms Jackson:
The hon. Gentleman's ears are as generous as he is himself. That is certainly not what I heard, but I would not argue with the hon. Gentleman's generous interpretation.
The hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) gave the Bill a gentle welcome. He was particularly concerned that there should not be a broad-brush approach in defining targets for a reduction in road traffic numbers. The same concern was expressed by others, including the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) and the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) who put forward the undoubted case that there are variables across the United Kingdom, and specific conditions in rural areas.
There is no possibility that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would not take into account the major differences that often surprise me in a country as small as ours. The specific factors affecting particular areas will be considered in devising and defining the criteria that will have to be in place to produce a reduction in road traffic numbers in the best interests of all our citizens.
Sir Nicholas Lyell:
There is a serious point to the Bill, which I am sure the Minister has studied carefully. Clause 2(3) is absolutely specific that, in considering matters relating to both clause 2(1) and 2(2),
"the Secretary of State shall have regard to the adverse impacts of road traffic"
in terms of
"congestion . . . danger to other road users; and social impacts."
What I want to know is whether the Government will abide by the law that they are helping to pass when considering bypasses.
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