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Mr. Peter Bottomley: Surely the issue is not whether the Secretary of State personally suffers some penalty if the targets are not met, but whether we can achieve an overall general improvement in the quality of life. Tens of thousands of people make a certain decision on 300-odd days of the year. Surely we should be trying to achieve a framework that will spot the things that matter, and not concentrate on the unimportant.
The Bill raises several issues on which the Minister could help to focus attention. No one expects the Minister to issue regulations--which could not be done under this Bill anyway--saying, "Thou shalt", or "Thou shalt not."
Mr. Grieve:
I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I was about to make precisely those points. He has outlined
We have a long haul ahead of us. As I said earlier, Ministers come to the House and express themselves in revivalist terms in general, but never provide details of substance. It is time that we and they woke up to the fact that the issues of environmental improvement generally and road traffic reduction in particular are difficult. The Bill takes a small step in that direction. It will allow for greater scrutiny, which in turn will allow for greater public debate. That will allow for the changes in culture that we hope will enable people to take a different view of the use of their cars and become more inventive and creative about the use of alternatives.
Mr. Damian Green (Ashford):
I apologise to you,Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to the House, for being today's miscreant in the mobile phone stakes. I would not like to be the hon. Member who, during Welsh questions on Monday, fled before Madam Speaker could identify him as that day's miscreant. It behoves those of us who pass laws to own up when we break the laws of the House.
The range of views expressed on the Bill this morning have been interesting--from a gentle welcome to severe reservations. That is a sensible range of responses.I assure the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) that I am at the gentle welcome end of the spectrum. To be honest, I do not think that the Bill will do a tremendous amount of good in achieving road traffic reductions, but it will do no harm. Indeed, some small amount of good may come from raising the issue in the public consciousness and putting a measure on the statute book that imposes continuous obligations on successive Secretaries of State to think about the issue.
The Bill has been improved as it has passed through its various stages, and may be improved yet further. Some of the improvements have been due to some of the Minister's more spectacular retreats. I look forward, with more than my usual eager anticipation, to her speech at the end of the debate. I am sure that she has prepared an enormous number of supportive remarks about the importance of road traffic reduction. It will be entertaining to see how she squares that with the fact that the Government have pulled many of the teeth out of the Bill, both during its various stages and following negotiations with the hon. Member for Ceredigion. In fact, I support the Minister, as I think that she has done the right thing.
The Bill imposes a responsibility on the Secretary of State. The House might find it useful to consider how, in practice, national targets would be implemented. As several hon. Members have said, there is a similar measure already on the statute book. It imposes similar responsibilities on local authorities for assessment and consideration of traffic issues. Obviously, local authorities can fulfil their responsibilities in a detailed way, while being sensitive to local conditions. This Bill is a much more ambitious attempt at traffic reduction because it sets national targets for England, Scotland and Wales. The danger is that they will be vacuous.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) has already said that we should draw a distinction between traffic problems in different parts of the country. What are perceived to be the main traffic problems in urban areas--usually congestion and pollution--are entirely different from those in rural areas, which often boil down to heavy lorries on unsuitable country roads and a lack of adequate public transport.
My constituency is more or less 50:50 urban and rural, so my constituents, depending on where they live, suffer from all those problems. The danger of national targets is that, unless the Secretary of State wills it, he will not be able to fine-tune the targets. I hope that the Minister can assure us that the targets set out in clause 2 will not be imposed flatly, but that the Secretary of State will provide a more sophisticated response.
Given the right hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for regionalism, which I do not share, I have no doubt that he will be tempted to provide regional targets. Much more important is that the overall national targets should be broken down by categories of specific problems. Within the national targets, the Secretary of State should recognise the necessity for targets to increase public transport in rural areas and to keep lorries and other heavy goods vehicles on appropriate roads and off inappropriate ones, but also the necessity for an entirely different set of targets to reduce urban congestion and consequent pollution. Without that fine-tuning of the national targets, I am very much afraid that the net effect of the Bill will be small.
Mr. Paterson:
It is all very well setting targets, but how does my hon. Friend suggest the Minister introduces practical measures to achieve them?
Mr. Green:
That is a very important point. In many ways, I would prefer the national targets set out in the Bill to be put into effect at local level, instead of the decision being taken by Ministers or officials in Whitehall. Each locality will know what measures and targets are appropriate for its area and will be able to make a much more practical and sensitive response to the needs of local people.
Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West):
I thank my hon. Friend for his customary courtesy in giving way.My local authority wrote to me asking me to support the Bill because, certainly at that time, it believed that the Bill would give it the power to set its own targets. Unfortunately, that is no longer in the Bill before us.
Mr. Green:
I am interested to hear what my hon. Friend says, because legislation already exists that enables local authorities to do just that. The Bill refers specifically to national targets. I am interested to learn that my hon. Friend's local authority wants to set local targets, and, in view of what we are learning from this morning's debate, perhaps he will be able to guide his authority in an appropriate direction, for which I know it will be extremely grateful.
I was talking about the interface between national and local targets. One hopes that the Bill has some practical effect, not least because, as hon. Members have already observed, our postbags have been bulging with letters on this issue--although I have to say that I have received more mail on other subjects. It is certainly true that there is a widespread expectation that, once the Bill has been
debated, and, I hope, passed, something will happen and there will be a reduction in road traffic. However, the mechanism for getting from here to there is not apparent unless the Secretary of State takes up the responsibilities given to him in clause 2(1) but neatly taken from him in clause 2(2).
When the fine tuning to which I referred takes place, it is important that it is appropriate. My local authority in Ashford is going through a phase of closing roads. It regards that as an appropriate way to improve the flow of traffic through the town. Many local businesses are extremely anxious and oppose individual road closures, and are probably right to do so. Local authorities that take a fairly broad-brush approach may well get it wrong and cause economic damage.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion pointed out that there are economic aspects to the traffic problem, so some economic analysis is needed. The Bill mentions the economic damage caused by excessive traffic, but the House must recognise that economic damage can also be caused by inappropriate traffic reduction measures. Once the Bill is passed, one hopes that those who are required to implement it will strike the proper balance.
As I said, my constituency is half rural. The traffic changes that rural dwellers are seeking are not the same as those sought by urban dwellers. One of the weaker parts of the Bill is its reference to the provision of adequate taxi services in rural and non-rural areas. I am sure it is clear to the Bill's promoter that those who are most concerned about the provision of transport in rural areas are those least likely to be regular users of taxis. Taxis in rural areas tend to be extremely expensive. Constituents who complain to me about public transport in their villages tend to be either young people or the elderly and the retired who cannot afford regular journeys by taxi, so more thought is needed on that issue.
In the end, cost will be the key. If there is to be a serious attempt to reduce the use of private cars in rural areas through the increased provision of public transport, I have to tell the Minister in all conscience that the£50 million nationally that the Government provided in the Budget is only a drop in the ocean. For the Minister's sake, I hope that the Government do not talk that up too much as a great initiative because in a year or two people will be saying that it has made no impact in their areas.
I hope that the Bill will focus the Secretary of State's mind on the transport issues that people regard as important. In my constituency, the fact that the M20 is inappropriately surfaced, making it one of the noisiest motorways in the country as it passes through an urban area, is regarded as important. If we are seen to be tackling transport issues in a way that opinion polls show most people approve of, but there are no practical improvements on the ground, we are in danger of bringing the House into disrepute. People will say that we are just talking and having no practical effect on their lives. That would be disappointing, because the hon. Member for Ceredigion has seized the public mood and moved the debate forward a few inches. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that we do not encourage impractical and inappropriate measures, but that we do not ignore the public mood.
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