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Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in real life, the only mechanism that will work is the price mechanism?
Mr. Dafis: I am afraid that I have to disagree. Nobody would deny that price influences people's behaviour. However, it would be dangerous to imagine that the price mechanism alone will deliver the results that we are seeking. Environmental groups have argued forcibly that, if we tried that, the social consequences and the public reaction would be negative, and we would not achieve the right outcome. Other, positive measures, such as investment, are needed. John Whitelegg has stated clearly that he believes that reductions can be achieved without increasing fuel prices, if the political will and a willingness to create the strategies exist.
I mentioned the three questions, and I have responded briefly to them. I wish to refer now to clause 2(2). Some have argued that clause 2(2) fatally weakens the Bill, by making provision for the Secretary of State not to have to set traffic reduction targets in certain circumstances. To be honest, I should prefer it if subsection (2) were not in the Bill. However, it is a concession that had to be made in order to obtain Government support. I understand why the Government wanted it in the Bill. I do not accept that it fatally weakens the Bill.
As the title of the Bill states, its purpose is to reduce road traffic. If, following its passage, the Government failed to set targets for road traffic reduction, they would fail to implement the purport of the Bill, if not the letter of it. I do not think that the Government would want to be guilty of that.
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch):
The hon. Gentleman says that the Bill would not be fatally flawed by the inclusion of clause 2(2) in its present form, but does he agree that clause 2(2) enables the Government to get off the hook of having to produce any targets whatever? If the Government in their absolute discretion think that other measures are appropriate, they can just use other measures. Will the hon. Gentleman try to move an amendment in the other place to ensure that the Bill achieves the purpose of requiring the Government to impose targets?
Mr. Dafis:
That was a useful intervention. Of course, I cannot move an amendment in the other place, although I could encourage someone to do so. Perhaps the Government will consider an amendment at this late stage, even though the draft has been agreed. The hon. Gentleman seems to suggest inserting the word "and" instead of "or" in line 13, so that the subsection would read:
Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge):
The hon. Gentleman is saying, in effect, that the Bill is completely useless as a measure of compulsion. If the Government ignore it, there may merely be a degree of moral opprobrium on them for doing so. Would there not have been more moral pressure on the Government if, when the Minister wrote to the hon. Gentleman saying that the Government would not oppose Second Reading provided that he agreed to a number of detailed amendments, he had told her what she could do with that idea? Would not that have exerted moral pressure? Instead, he has given her a cover story.
Mr. Dafis:
The hon. Gentleman has made his point, but I am not moved to agree with him. I do not intend to announce at this stage, on Third Reading, that the Bill is a useless exercise. It is an extremely useful exercise and it is important because it requires the Government to set targets, except in certain circumstances, which I shall deal with next. The impetus for the Bill has come from broad grass-roots support.
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold):
Having signed up to the Kyoto agreement for CO 2 reduction, the Government will have to specify the areas in which reductions will be made to achieve those targets. One of the key areas is emissions from cars. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government will have to set and publish their reduction targets?
Mr. Dafis:
I could not agree more. There is no doubt that road traffic reduction is crucial if the Government are to achieve their Kyoto target and their own voluntary target, which is much more ambitious. The Government will have to set targets, and the Bill provides a useful framework.
The Secretary of State would be released from the duty to set targets for road traffic reduction only if he or she could demonstrate clearly that other targets or other measures could better achieve that. The phrase used in the Bill is:
I do not believe that it could be demonstrated that other measures were more appropriate, bearing in mind the criteria listed in subsection (3). I do not think that they could be met or that the adverse effect of road traffic could be reduced without reducing road traffic. I do not believe that any Secretary of State could show that that could be done in any other way. In my view, meeting those important criteria involves reducing road traffic.
The adverse effects of road traffic listed in subsection (3) are: the emission of gases that contribute to climate change; the effects on air quality; the effects on health; traffic congestion; the effects on land and biodiversity; the danger to other road users; and social impacts. If those effects could be reduced in any other way, which I do not believe, it would be an extremely important achievement, and the enactment of the Bill would be amply justified.
Mr. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington):
This is an appropriate time for the Third Reading of the Bill. As some hon. Members may have heard this morning, in the United Kingdom the incidence of asthma among children is the highest in the world. Although pollution is not necessarily the cause of asthma, it is accepted as the trigger for asthma.
I shall restrict my comments to clause 2. I regret that the Bill has no teeth. The targets have been extracted. A 10 per cent. target in the Bill--the same target as has been agreed for local authorities--could have been the Government's first step towards the 20 per cent. CO 2 reduction target to which they are committed, as they have recently restated.
The Government's actions to date in relation to road traffic reduction and the reduction of CO 2 emissions are disappointing. The Deputy Prime Minister recently announced an extra £500 million for public transport. I understand from a letter that I received from the Library that that £500 million is in fact £475 million. The figure was rounded up to £500 million. It is a novel approach to accounting that, for the purpose of an announcement, the figure was rounded up by £25 million to make it sound larger.
We read in the press today that Ministers and officials who are going to the green transport conference--where, among other things, green cars will be on show--are to
be ferried there in 60 limousines. They will not catch the train from Manchester to Crewe because apparently the station in Crewe is in such a dilapidated state that the Government are scared to show it to foreign Ministers and officials, so they will travel in 60 limousines, none of which is gas-powered--they are all standard, petrol-driven limousines.
The Government said that consideration would be given to one of the amendments that I tabled, together with the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), which related to a statement that the Deputy Prime Minister made after 1 May, when he was already in power. He stated that if, at the end of this Parliament, traffic levels were not held at 1997 levels, he would have failed, and that he would be held to account. That is not reflected in the Bill.
I accept that the Bill shows that, in principle, the Government are committed to doing something about reducing road traffic. It is definitely an improvement on the attitude of the previous Government, whose enthusiasm for road building would have done Jeremy Clarkson proud.
Mr. Robathan:
The hon. Gentleman was not in the House during the previous Parliament, but I was. I assure him that the previous Government were similarly committed to doing something about road traffic. Sadly, commitments to acting to reduce road traffic do not always achieve results.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. On Third Reading, hon. Members should discuss what is in the Bill and not what previous Governments have attempted to do.
Mr. Brake:
I shall draw my remarks to a close. The Liberal Democrats give the Bill a very cautious welcome, because we think that it is the first very small step towards achieving reductions in traffic and CO 2 emissions.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West):
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) on bringing his Bill to Third Reading. He was correct to acknowledge the help that he has received from the Bill's supporters and from those who asked questions about the legislation's detail and approach. I take this opportunity to commend the Minister on the good humour that she has shown throughout most of the process. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope). I regret one or two things that I said during our exchanges in Committee, and I hope that he will overlook them.
It is important to recognise that the Bill repeats at national level existing local authority provisions. Local authorities will have the greatest power to act to reduce road traffic because they are responsible for 96 per cent. of roads in this country. Central Government can assist not by saying that all the road traffic reduction targets will be achieved through their own actions, but by affecting the popular culture. People should not suppose that the road traffic reduction Bill, which provides an opportunity for the Government to introduce a strategy and publish
targets, signals an end to all road building. Most of our constituents know that we must create more traffic canals that divert traffic away from residential, school and shopping areas.
We need a bypass in my constituency. We also need a roundabout on the A259, so that people can access the village of Ferring without having to travel an extra two or three miles because they cannot cross the dual carriageway. I am sure that hon. Members could repeat other similar examples. In my previous constituency of Eltham in south-east London, the building of the Rochester Way relief road prevented traffic from going through many rat runs and, to that extent, provided a more direct route.
I do not argue that that should be the main plank of our traffic reduction strategy. Although most people would like to see a reduction in road traffic, and many could, with some thought and rearrangement, have better lives by travelling less far, less often, they should not suppose that the Bill is anti anything: it is simply a means of trying to achieve a better life, as the hon. Member for Ceredigion pointed out.
Today is not the day to air particular niggles across the Chamber. I am not sure that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) acknowledged the fact that, regardless of what may happen at one Transport Ministers' conference in Crewe, the present Government are mildly interested in making arrangements themselves, as well as trying to invigilate the actions of others, that will lead to a better life. I believe that that is the only serious reason for entering political service.
I shall spell out the things that I believe the Bill will achieve when enacted. Ministers should be prepared to say when they have got some targets right and, upon reflection, some wrong. When I was a junior Minister at the Department of Transport, the then Secretary of State set targets for road casualty reduction. We were correct in the targets that we set for deaths and serious injuries, but we were wrong about our target for slight injuries--I shall not explore that point in detail now, as it is outside the scope of the Bill. The review process will help us to focus on what is achievable.
There is also the "how" question. The hon. Member for Ceredigion explained why it is sensible to have a strategy for reducing road traffic--which, in the main, involves reducing unnecessary road traffic. He did not talk a great deal about how that would be achieved--although he spent some time on how much could be achieved. I shall refer to the "how" question.
"other targets, and other measures"
instead of
"other targets, or other measures".
That is an interesting idea. If the Minister would consider it and respond positively, I should be very pleased.
"more appropriate for the purpose of reducing".
The Secretary of State would have to show that other measures were better for reducing the adverse impact of road traffic than the reduction of traffic itself. Those are the precise circumstances in which the Secretary of State would be released from that duty.
9.59 am
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