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9.45 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Alun Michael): After six years of speaking from Labour's Front Bench on home affairs it is a pleasure and a relief to debate the first Bill in all that time that goes to the heart of crime and offers hope to communities throughout the country that have been demoralised by crime and disorder. In this measure, we are being tough on crime, but we are also offering hope and opportunity.
During today's debate, we have heard many fine speeches. Indeed, it was probably the best criminal justice debate that I have heard during my time in the House. Many of the speeches were brief but excellent. I am pleased to be able to tell the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) that I will be in the city tomorrow to speak to a full council meeting about our proposals to tackle youth crime. No doubt he will be heckling me.
I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) support some of our innovative proposals, such as the youth curfews. I hope that he will support us further in the measures that we are introducing. He asked about the provision of detention and training orders. The main purpose is to tidy up the current mess--all the different sorts of orders and provision of secure places around the country. He asked for details of the different types of regimes and the way in which they will operate. He has missed the point, which is that the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales will be introduced to oversee and set standards and ensure quality and appropriate provision for youngsters in each of those places.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about the sex offenders order. The breach of an order is a criminal offence punishable with five years' imprisonment, which means that it is automatically an arrestable offence under section 24 of the Police and Criminal and Evidence Act 1984, so he is under a misapprehension about the availability of appropriate powers. He also asked about the release of prisoners who are subject to the provisions of the Sex Offenders Act 1997. The whole point about the reference to exceptional circumstances is that normally sex offenders will not be allowed out on early release. I invite him to read the list of offences and to appreciate the wide range of sentences specified in that Act. There may be exceptional circumstances in which it is appropriate and just that release may apply, but it will not normally apply--and certainly not at all in the extreme cases, which are the ones that have caused the great debate over the past few days about the danger of sex offenders to children.
It is a total and absolute cheek for the hon. Member for Hertsmere to mention secure accommodation. I remind him that I was one of those who challenged the previous Government to do something to deal with the holding of youngsters aged 15 and 16 in adult prisons. We extracted a promise that they would remove them, and they took powers in the Criminal Justice Act 1991 to do so. The only tiny thing that they did not do was to make arrangements to deal with the holding of those youngsters
in secure accommodation. In February 1991, when the Conservative Government made that promise, they calculated the number of places that were needed--but they are still not in place. This Government are serious about their promises and we will keep them. The previous Government made promises, but took seven years not to keep them.
Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North):
With regard to young people, I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the excellent bid that has been put in by Northamptonshire to pilot some of the measures on youth offending. I urge him to ensure the approval of that bid, which will be a great success and greatly welcomed by communities such as Blackthorn, to which he spoke earlier this year.
Mr. Michael:
I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. I shall be totally objective and say that we will consider the applications that have been made. However, I take the opportunity of congratulating the authorities in Northamptonshire on the co-operation that has existed up to now. We have learnt lessons from the success of the diversion unit, which has used reparation as such an effective tool with young offenders.
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
Let me take the Minister back for one moment to the home detention and sex offender orders. As I remember, the governors will decide whether there is any risk in allowing people to be released early. Should we assume from what the Minister has said that the Government will be giving advice and guidance to governors as to which of the specific notifiable offences are to be considered as exceptional in the circumstances?
Mr. Michael:
The right hon. Gentleman is right. We shall be giving clear guidance to governors. We have made it clear, and have acted on that since the implementation of the Sex Offenders Act 1997, that we must move from a culture of waiting to see what will happen to assessing risk and acting to prevent it from turning into reality with another victim. That is the type of approach that we shall adopt in this case, too.
The hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) was among those who asked how we would judge success. For his benefit, and that of the House, I echo the words of the Evening Standard leader tonight which says:
Angela Smith (Basildon):
Does my hon. Friend agree that an important way of reducing crime is through local partnerships, and that many local authorities, including my own in Basildon, welcome the duties placed on them by the Bill in that regard? Is my hon. Friend aware that that has already been undertaken without the support of Government and that the authority now welcomes the Government's support?
Mr. Michael:
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I saw the enthusiasm of the partners in Basildon--
Some Conservative Members showed imagination in claiming credit for paving the way for the Bill. That is particularly interesting considering that many of the Bill's key elements were voted down when they were tabled as amendments by the then Labour Opposition to a series of criminal justice Bills. Conservative Members should share my experience of meeting police officers--from chief officers to those at the sharp end--who are filled with enthusiasm for what we are doing in the Bill.
We are offering those police officers a massive challenge. One chief officer told me that we were asking them to measure their success not by how fast they answer the telephone or by how many crooks they catch, but by whether they cut crime. Rather than interim or more peripheral measurements, the real measurement is whether we succeed in the fight against crime. As the Evening Standard said, do we make people feel safer? That is the measurement that we shall apply to the police. We will not ask the police to do it on their own. We are asking them to work with the local authority as partners. We are asking the whole community and all agencies to be involved in the fight against crime.
Another hon. Member suggested that the Bill is rooted in previous Conservative speeches and legislation. Yes, the Conservatives were promising action for years, but it did not come. We supported the previous Government when they got it right, but the only connection between the provisions of this Bill and previous Bills is that our suggestions were voted down. The proposal for reparation was voted down in every year since 1993. The action plan order, the speeding up of youth justice, the anti-social behaviour order and statutory partnerships were all voted down. I welcome the support of Conservative Members for what we are proposing, but if there has been a U-turn, it has not been by Labour Members. I welcome Conservative Members' support for the measures that they have voted against in the past.
I will not be able to deal with all the specific points that have been raised, so I promise to write to hon. Members. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir R. Smith) made a number of points about the legislation. We will consider any constructive amendments that hon. Members may table in Committee. The Scottish clauses will be dealt with by the Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office. As I promised earlier, we will propose that they be grouped together so that they can be dealt with coherently as a series of Scottish debates.
I must point out that there is no drafting error in clause 20. It is our intention that the chief constable should have the role of applying to the court for a sex offender order. That is an application to a civil court and it would be inappropriate to give a role in civil proceedings to the procurator fiscal.
It is also the intention--this applies equally to England and Wales--to deal in the Bill with racial offences. The definitions of racial groups in clause 30 and elsewhere build on existing race relations legislation, which applies throughout Great Britain. There would be great problems in attempting to widen the definition.
"Londoners will believe that crime is going down when they really feel safer in their homes and on the streets, and when their insurance premiums stop rising."
It is our intention to ensure that people throughout the country feel safer and are safer. An important element of that is the setting of local targets by the partners--the police and the local authority--which will enable the local community to judge their success, just as we shall be judged on the success of our policies nationally.
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