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7.18 pm
Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking): I pay tribute to the previous Home Secretary, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), under whom crime figures dropped for several years, and to the current Home Secretary and his Minister of State, the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), whom I have always found thoughtful and constructive in their approach to the serious problems that we are dealing with.
Crime figures have risen inexorably in the past 20 years, particularly those for violent crime. Members of Parliament often seem powerless in the face of that. Every year, we pass criminal justice legislation, full of hope, but the figures carry on getting worse. Perhaps it has something to do with the way in which we operate. Perhaps such matters should be dealt with by Select Committees rather than Standing Committees to allow hon. Members from both sides with a common interest in tackling the problems of crime and law and order to discuss matters and move forward away from the normal antagonism of party politics.
Mr. Brian White (Milton Keynes, North-East):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Malins:
No, I have no time.
An all-party approach on these critical issues would be greatly preferable.
The Bill deals largely with youth crime. I congratulate the Home Secretary on focusing on that area. He will realise that crime is not just a Home Office problem. It also concerns the Department for Education and Employment. A good school is not merely one that turns out pupils with a large number of grade As at GCSE--a good school spots discipline problems and truancy early and takes steps to deal with them, because they can lead to crime; a good school encourages sport, particularly among young boys, because that can turn them away from crime; a good school produces pupils who do not turn out to be criminals, but who deserve a grade A in good citizenship.
Come with me on a trip to one of the courts where I sit as a recorder or stipendiary magistrate. Have a look at the average defendant in front of me. He is almost certainly a young man of 18 or 19. He has had a rotten education and has never had a job. He has come from a broken home and has bad housing. His parents do not give a damn and do not even turn up at court to support him in his moment of trial. Juvenile crime is a huge problem which gets worse and worse. In the long term, it will be immensely damaging to this country.
Far too many of those young people are involved not just in crime, but in drugs. I was sorry that the Home Secretary did not say much about drugs. As the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) said, diversion from crime is an important issue. We are top of the European league for the number of 15-year-olds experimenting with cannabis, ecstasy or amphetamines. The link between drugs and crime is clear and must be dealt with. I forgot to tell the House that the odds are that the young man in court whom I mentioned a moment ago is a drug addict. He is in court for burglary. He burgles not because he wants the goods, but because he needs to sell them to raise money to fund his heroin habit, which can cost £500 or £600 a week.
When that young man goes to prison, the situation will be no better, because drugs will be freely available. Barristers regularly plead with me not to send their client to prison because drugs will be more freely available there than outside. In 1996-97, there were 21,700 positive drugs tests among prisoners. In spite of the good efforts of many charities in prisons, the problem has not been
dealt with properly. We must break the vicious circle of drugs leading to crime, leading to prison, leading to release, leading to more drugs.
I welcome the drug treatment and testing order in the Bill, but more needs to be done. The appointment of a drugs tsar is probably gesture politics. Prisons need to be totally cleaned out of drugs. We must conduct research into whether there should be compulsory medical treatment of drug addicts. Research in America with the drug naltrexone has been useful. There is an increasingly strong argument that those who sell class A drugs should be treated more harshly by the courts because they purvey great evil and are responsible for a huge and disproportionate amount of crime.
Where do parents fit in? They fit in a lot better if there are two of them. Many of those who appear before me come from one-parent or broken families. We should make divorce more difficult and strive much harder to keep parents together for the sake of children, buttressing marriage in every way possible through tax breaks to keep families together. I am worried about the parenting order, because I do not think that requiring them to attend counselling and guidance sessions weekly will work. It is fanciful and unrealistic to expect to be able to compel people to be good parents. Good parents do not need such an order and bad parents will put two fingers up to it. Parents who do not turn up to court to support their children--parents who do not care--are likely to put a brick down the throat of anyone who visits them with an order to attend court for parenting lessons. That is the reality of life. The orders are fanciful and bureaucratic. A breach by a parent on supplementary benefit resulting in a fine of £3,000 will only clog up the means lists of our courts and will get us nowhere. Too much bureaucracy is involved.
There are some questions about the anti-social behaviour orders. What is the difference between the clauses on anti-social behaviour orders and sections 4 and 5 of the Public Order Act 1986? They are both summary only. Why will an offence under the Bill be indictable as well as non-indictable? Why might a breach of an order result in five years in prison on indictment for a juvenile, whereas someone offending under sections 4 and 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 would have no such stringent penalty?
Ms Hazel Blears (Salford):
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. The issues are of huge importance to the people of Salford. I found some of the comments by the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) depressing and pessimistic. The Bill is full of hope for the people of the constituency that I do my best to represent.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for visiting Salford last week. He spent a great deal of time with local people in one of the most besieged
communities in the country. He came to Langworthy, in Salford, and spoke with local people about the huge problems that they face, not only with crime but with disorder.
I should like briefly to give the House some statistics, because the volume of crime in my city is overwhelming. My communities are under seige and in crisis. I think that hon. Members will be genuinely shocked by the figures from only the past four weeks. In the past four weeks, in the police F Division, we have had 180 burglaries of dwellings and 168 burglaries of business premises. We have had 255 vehicles stolen, and 207 thefts from vehicles. We have also had 76 woundings--in a four-week period.
As for disorder, we have had 356 incidents of juvenile nuisance and 138 domestic disputes. We have had 445 various "suspicious circumstances". We have also had 1,228 incidents that were not recorded as "crimes". In a four-week period, 1,431 key crimes have been recorded in F Division.
The volume of crime daily facing local people is what grinds them down and depresses their spirit. I believe that the Bill's provisions will give them the morale and confidence that they need to begin to fight back.
Many local people are frightened and intimidated by the prospect of even getting involved in reporting crime. I remind the House that the horrific figures I have quoted deal with only recorded crime. All hon. Members know that under those figures are many layers of crimes and incidents that go unreported because people do not want to become involved. They fear harassment, intimidation and retribution. Such fears are why we have had to establish in our city, not only a witness support scheme, but a witness protection scheme--to protect witnesses from the very real fear of personal violence that some criminals, given half a chance, would mete out to them.
Police in our city are working extremely hard to tackle the problems. A recent operation--Operation Jellyfish--was aimed specifically at youngsters aged between 10 and 14, and involved video surveillance. Police videoed youngsters committing crimes--such as theft from vehicles, damage and all types of vandalism and anti-social behaviour--and then visited parents with that video evidence.
Previously, when police went round to young people's homes to accuse children of involvement in anti-social behaviour and crime, parents--perhaps some of those parents mentioned by the hon. Member for Woking, who do not care about their children--often said, "My son or daughter couldn't possibly have been involved in that crime." However, when faced with video evidence, parents' reactions have been tremendously encouraging. Some of those parents have begun to take responsibility for their children's actions, because the evidence has been incontrovertible.
In my city, we have to rely on video surveillance and police action, as local people are finding it very difficult to come forward, because of intimidation, to give evidence against their neighbours. In many cases, we know the identity of the criminals who are committing one offence after another. In Salford, unfortunately, good families--rather than the criminals, who are not apprehended or dealt with effectively--are living behind bars and numerous locks, almost in steel cages.
Problems in many inner-city areas, such as Salford, are about not only crime but disorder. Although our police can probably cope with some of our most serious crimes, the detection rate in Greater Manchester--as my righthon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said--is appalling. I am sure that a similar situation prevails across the country.
Disorder causes police the most problems. If police are to deal with serious crime, they cannot constantly be on the streets trying to control behaviour in the community. Orders dealing with anti-social behaviour will be most useful in dealing with that type of situation. They will apply to anti-social families, who often roam the streets of my city with impunity, causing misery and mayhem to the decent people who are trying to uphold standards.
The anti-social behaviour orders will be especially useful because the civil burden of proof, rather than the current higher standard, will apply. The orders will therefore be easier to obtain. Obtaining evidence also will be easier, as such a heavy burden will not be placed on local people. Currently, they are required to come forward personally to give evidence, and subsequently to face retribution. Breaching an order may result in a sentence of up to five years, which may well cause some criminals in our communities to think twice about doing so.
The proposed reparation orders will confront young criminals with the effects of their crimes on their victims, and make them repair the damage that they have caused. The orders will be more effective than the numerous cautions and fines that are currently imposed. Some criminals have absolutely no intention of paying their fines.
Curfews imposed on youngsters under 10 have been criticised by some hon. Members for potentially being ineffective. However, curfews will send out a message in the community that it is not right for youngsters under 10 to be roaming the streets--not only at 9.30 pm, but, in my city, at 11 or 12 at night. I know a youngster of six who regularly sleeps in the park. Such things are happening in our inner-city areas. If we have to resort to measures such as curfews, so be it. I agree that they are a drastic measure, and I do not want people's freedom to be limited. I remember being out fairly late at night when growing up in Salford--the inner-city--but it was a safe place to be. It is no longer a safe place to be for youngsters, because of the influences to which they are exposed, the damage that is done to them, and the abuse to which they might be subjected on the streets of our cities. As I said, if we need curfews, so be it.
The Bill's provisions will start to bring confidence back to our communities, which, in recent years, have had the heart knocked out of them. Conservative Members are reluctant to accept the link between unemployment, poverty, family breakdown, the benefit culture and crime, but those factors are undoubtedly related. My city is living evidence that mass unemployment has a dramatic effect not only on crime but on community disorder.
Things are beginning to change in my city, and I should like to give one or two examples of positive ways in which local authorities, police and communities are working together to tackle the problems. Their actions will be helped and reinforced by the Bill's provisions.
We have the safer Salford scheme, in which our local authority is spending half a million pounds annually on closed circuit television, security, fencing, creating areas
of defensible space and youth outreach work. The youth outreach work is not being done in youth clubs, as some of our children will not go to them, but by sending youth workers out to estates and the areas of greatest disorder. They are bringing in youngsters and re-engaging them with the community.
Extra police officers have been funded by our single regeneration budget. In one case, a local housing association has provided funds to secure extra police officers to help in improving an area in which its properties are located. By focusing the work of dedicated police officers on the areas of greatest need, we will begin to restore order where there is currently mostly chaos.
No longer do we have problems with disorder only on large council estates. The biggest disorder problems in my constituency are in areas of privately rented property belonging to absentee landlords. One area has 200 absentee landlords, who do not vet their tenants but will put anyone in housing simply to get the housing benefit. Those landlords have no stake in the community. Our communities have dissolved almost overnight because of uncaring landlords who are interested only in a quick profit. We will have fundamentally to address that issue.
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