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Mr. Blunkett: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the acquisition of an inside toilet might persuade some of his constituents who are putting their hard-earned money into private education to send their children to that excellent infants school instead?
Mr. St. Aubyn: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that people who send their children to schools in Surrey take into account a range of factors. The factor that he has suggested is pretty well bottom of the list. It is not a key factor in deciding where one sends one's child to school. Parents will consider the performance of the school--for example, in attaining literacy standards, and its proximity to their home.
Frankly, as someone who has survived the indignity, as the right hon. Gentleman sees it, of an outside loo when I was at school--he may judge for himself how much damage it has done to my character and personality--I hold no brief against my parents for deciding on that school despite the lack of basic necessities. The right hon. Gentleman's argument is absurd, and I note that he avoided the real question, which was why a school that might need the £60,000 to keep going should be obliged to pander to his whims and sentiments at the expense of its very survival.
Mr. Byers:
A number of issues have been raised in this brief debate on new clause 13, and I will try to answer all of them. First, I must deal with the concerns outlined by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir J. Stanley)--in particular, the letter sent by an official from my Department. Letters were sent asking each local education authority to consider surplus places--an issue that the Conservative Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) raised--and drawing attention to schools that had more than 25 per cent. of places empty.
The Government take the view that local authorities should review provision to ensure that value for money is achieved. In Kent, 48 primary schools and 25 secondary schools have more than 25 per cent. of their places vacant, and it is appropriate for the Government to ask the local authority for an explanation.
However, that must be seen in the context of my written reply to a question from the hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) on 26 February on surplus places and the duty and responsibility of local education authorities. In that reply, I clearly said that the Government recognise
I take the point made by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling. We are not considering all schools equally. As was said in the statement on 28 February, we recognise that, yes, the matter should be determined by the Secretary of State, but, more importantly, that there should be a presumption against closure, which is vital if we are to offer rural schools far greater protection than they have had.
Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald):
The Minister will be aware that, in the list of Kent schools to which he has extensively referred, no fewer than 10 are Church of England primary schools. He will also be aware of the considerable concern about what will happen to denominational schools that face the problem of the 31st child.
Parents who seek to place their children in denominational schools put first and foremost the teaching of the faith and are looking for the denominational school concerned. If 10 under- subscribed Church of England primary schools are taking children who could not get into over-subscribed schools of the same denomination, would that be a sufficiently unusual circumstance to guarantee that the school continued to function even if it remained heavily under-subscribed?
Mr. Byers:
I will deal in a second with the issues that we might need to take into account when determining the schools that might be closed. As we made clear in the announcement on 28 February, we are not saying, "Never, ever," to the closure of a village or rural school. There must be circumstances in which a closure would be wholly appropriate, but we will consider whether parents are being offered real choice of denominational education if that is what they want. That factor must be taken into account.
I am sure that the right hon. Lady is aware that, in the Government's discussions with the Church authorities on our class size pledge and our policy towards surplus places, we have reached a situation in which the authorities are broadly supportive of the Government's position. The Church education authorities have approached us about our pledge to reduce class sizes in infant schools, and broadly welcome our measures.
Miss Widdecombe:
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his generosity in giving way again. He has several times prayed in aid the attitude of the Churches to this issue. Is it not the case that the Roman Catholic Church at any rate broadly supports some limit on class sizes, and would want such a limitation to come about, but not at the expense of denying Roman Catholic education to Roman Catholic children?
Mr. Byers:
That is the case, which is why, elsewhere in the Bill, we have made specific admissions provisions to meet those concerns. There is a special provision that admissions will not be dealt with by the adjudicator, as normally would be the case, but referred to the Secretary of State.
We inserted that provision to meet the concerns expressed by the Roman Catholic Church in particular. Our approach has been clear: that, if the Bill needs to be
amended to make it better, we are prepared to amend it. We had several constructive meetings with representatives of the Church education authorities. In the light of their views and their concerns about the Bill as originally drafted, we made several changes. The admissions change is an example of one that we made because we believe that it meets the reasonable concerns of the Church authorities, and makes the Bill better.
On the point made by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling, if there is concern in Kent, I am happy to write to the chief education officer to clarify the Government's view on the matter. Geography and service to a rural village community are factors that must be considered in replying to letters from officials about surplus places. I hope that that clarifies the Government's thinking, and will reassure parents and teachers in the schools to which he referred.
It is interesting that the Conservatives seem suddenly to have discovered the importance of rural schools in this debate.
Mr. Dorrell:
We offered exactly the same safeguard.
Mr. Byers:
The right hon. Gentleman says that the Conservatives had exactly the safeguard that is being offered. He fails to realise that there are safeguards; I use the plural, because there are more than one. The great weakness of new clause 13 is that it seeks only to refer the matter to the Secretary of State. We need to go far beyond that if we are serious about protecting rural schools.
Since 1983, under the previous Government, 450 rural village schools have been closed. The Bill means that, between now and September 1999, such matters will be referred to the Secretary of State, as I made clear in my press notice. Most importantly, there will be a presumption against closure. Ministers will have particular regard to the need to provide access to a local school for local communities. No such presumption operated under the previous Government. That is why they were able to embark on wholesale closure of village schools. I will deal in a moment with the framework after September 1999.
It is not enough to refer such matters to the Secretary of State. There has to be a referral, and a presumption against closure, which will operate between now and 1999. The rate of closures under the previous Government works out at more than 40 a year. We will at least guarantee that, by September 1999, there will not have been such a closure rate.
Mrs. Browning:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Byers:
I want first to describe what we are doing to ensure that village schools provide the quality of education that the children attending them want. I do not want to take an announcement away from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but in April he will make known the allocations for the national grid for learning. They will make it clear that village schools will be linked to the national grid. By harnessing the benefits of new
Mrs. Browning:
If it is simply a question of adding presumption of closure to new clause 13, or to another amendment, would the Minister accept such an amendment in another place?
Mr. Byers:
I will not, because I was talking about safeguards, of which there need to be a number. It is not only a referral to the Secretary of State, a presumption against closure, and linking rural schools to the national grid for learning. It is also about reducing class sizes, which will benefit many schools, and giving them the benefits of the new deal capital money, which will make a real difference to rural primary schools.
"that authorities will want to take into account any unusual circumstances, for example geography and social make-up."--[Official Report, 26 February 1998; Vol. 306, c. 364.]
Therefore, in answer to our request for information about those schools, it is for the Kent local education authority to point out the rural communities that might be served by them. It is clearly important for both the Government and Kent local education authority to consider the needs of the school in the context of the community it serves.
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