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Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland): What happened when the Government party was in the minority in Scotland?
Mr. Major: If the hon. and learned Gentleman cares to look back, he will see that previous Labour Governments have sustained a majority with Scottish Members of Parliament. The difference is that the Bill proposes that the Scottish Parliament will have exclusive responsibility for certain issues and the power to tax. If he does not understand that, he should listen to the debates and then contribute.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Major: No, the hon. Gentleman can make his speech in a few moments.
Mr. Salmond: On a point of order, Mr. Lord. The former Prime Minister, for whom I have some regard, seems to be unaware that we are continuing a
debate that we were having 10 days ago. Is it in order to attend the second half of a Committee debate and refuse to take interventions?
The Second Deputy Chairman: It is up to right hon. and hon. Members to decide whether to take interventions.
Mr. Major: I shall deal with that point briefly. Of course the debate was going on the other evening, but it was agreed that there would be a further two hours of debate today. There has not been a further two hours of debate, and some hon. Members who want to speak on this issue will not be able to do so. I intend to be brief so that the hon. Gentleman can contribute, if only he will cease interrupting.
I return to the point about what will happen in England. Will the English be treated less favourably constitutionally than the Scots under this Bill and the Welsh under the Government of Wales Bill? That is not sustainable. With their majority, the Government can drive the Bill through the House, and show every intention of doing so. I beg the Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution to consider what that will do over time to opinion in England. Does he really want to arouse nationalism across an England that resents the Scots and the Welsh? I do not want that to happen; yet I fear that the nature of the Bill, and the way in which the Government are driving it through the Commons, will lead to such an outcome.
Is there a credible answer to the West Lothian question? Not without a rebalancing of the constitution once the Bill has become law, as it now almost certainly will.
Mr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Major:
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not.
No one in the House has any doubt about my feeling on the issue over many years. I have never made any secret of the fact that I think that the sort of constitutional change that is proposed is very short-sighted. It is being introduced for party political advantage, and over time--a long time--it will backfire. I am concerned about the long-term future of the United Kingdom, not the short-term advantage of politicians who see some advantage in supporting the Bill at the present time.
The only gainers from the Bill, over time, will be those who genuinely favour--the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) does, and has made no secret of it--a separatist Scotland, a Scotland broken away from the rest of the United Kingdom. The Government, who claim that that is not their position, will have to answer at the bar of history for having brought about circumstances that may create exactly that eventuality.
If the Bill goes through, it will be necessary to bring about further constitutional change to minimise the damage and the resentment across the United Kingdom that the Bill will create. I do not know whether that means an English Parliament--which I do not myself favour--an English Grand Committee, or some other stratagem. Clearly, much more thought will be needed than we can give this afternoon, but changes there will undoubtedly need to be once the Bill is on the statute book.
I say that changes will have to come, because the constitutional vandalism of this ill-thought-out pig's breakfast of a Bill will demand further change elsewhere in the United Kingdom to protect the position of people elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and to protect the working practices of the House.
Sir Robert Smith:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Major:
Surely the hon. Gentleman heard me say that I would not give way. I want as many hon. Members as possible to be able to speak.
I have made it clear repeatedly over the past seven years, and over the past few months when the Bill has been contemplated, that I absolutely understand, and admire, the sense of national pride in Scotland. No one disputes that. I believe, however, that the Scots will find that the menu that has been laid before them is a menu without price. There is a price to be paid, in Scotland and elsewhere--
Mr. McAllion:
You paid the price.
Mr. Major:
If I did, I paid the price for standing up for what I thought was right for the United Kingdom. I did not stand up for what I thought was right for Labour party political interests, which is what the present Government have done.
Scotland cannot have extra privileges; it cannot have more public expenditure; it cannot have excessive representation in the House; and it cannot have constitutional advantages over the rest of the United Kingdom--if that United Kingdom is to remain united, as I wish it to. This is a divisive Bill. Let us not mince words. Not so much in the short term, as in the long term, the Bill will damage the unity of the United Kingdom dramatically. It brings change, and it will create a demand for more change. It is a constitutional whirlwind, and we will reap the harvest--not just in the House, where we can cope with our procedures, but in regard to something far more important and far more long-standing: the unity of the United Kingdom itself.
Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, Pollok):
It is a privilege to follow the former Prime Minister. However, it is fair to say that he has espoused views that were espoused during the general election campaign; views that led to the Conservative party's representation in Scotland being reduced from 10 seats to no seats--"Nul points", as one would say in the Eurovision song contest--and which led his party to the biggest defeat in living memory in a British general election.
The British people have taken account of the arguments that the former Prime Minister makes, and rejected them decisively. The Scottish people had the opportunity to hear the views of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the debates before the referendum, and almost every part of Scotland rejected those views
overwhelmingly. Is it not significant that the only Scots that the right hon. Gentleman can find to argue his case are those who could not get elected in Scotland, but had to flee south of the border to find a safe seat in England? In Scotland there is no support for his views.
Those who seek to destroy the Union speak with the former Prime Minister's voice, and that of the nationalists. The status quo before the general election was not sustainable. Scots made it clear that they wanted to retain the Union, but that they wanted a system of devolved authority--which, I am glad to say, the Government are setting up.
However, I return, if I may, to amendment No. 258. I took the trouble to be in the Chamber during the previous discussions on this matter and, although I welcome the former Prime Minister's belated interest in these matters, it is significant that this is the first time, I believe, that he has attended the Committee.
The Conservative amendment suggests not that Scottish representation should be reduced to the same level as that in England and Wales, but that it should be reduced even below that, so that the electoral quota for Scotland should be 120 per cent. of that for England. Evidently the Tories have written off Scotland. They realise that they are, and will remain, unpopular there, so they intend to play the English nationalist card.
When my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) mentioned Enoch Powell, I recalled how Enoch Powell used to deplore racism while he was stirring it up. Those who deplore English nationalism while stirring it up are doing the same thing. They are trying to pander to the worst in our society because they have no positive suggestions to make on this subject, or on many others.
I do not accept that England is an undifferentiated mass. I have been struck by the welcome given to Scottish devolution by many people in England who want something similar for their part of the country. I believe that differing speeds of devolution will develop throughout England and Wales. I believe that the constitution of this country can accept anomalies; that it can accept differences; that it can accept different ways of progressing.
If the House is supreme, I see no reason why it cannot decide that some matters will be devolved to Scotland, to Wales, to London or to the north of England, without shattering the essential community of the kingdom. It is not as though powers were being devolved in a way that bypassed the House. A decision of the House will devolve those powers. In that way, the House, having taken that decision, is consciously deciding to live with the elements of anomaly that might flow from it.
My hon. Friend the former Member for West Lothian, now the hon. Member for Linlithgow, made a very interesting contribution. I enjoyed his speech of resignation from the Labour Whip. I am struck by the extent to which all Labour Members except "Oor Tam" are out of step. The basis on which Labour candidates stood at the general election was quite clear, and we clearly presented our case to the electorate. It is also clear that his arguments about Labour Members feeling obliged to refrain from voting on other matters did not reflect Labour's policy.
The poll tax was imposed on Scotland by the votes of English Members. In Committee and in the House, I and many others watched local government in Scotland being butchered against the will of the overwhelming majority of Scottish Members by an English majority. That was accepted to some extent because Scotland was part of the Union, and Parliament had decided how such matters were to be arranged. Similarly, it is reasonable and fair to conclude that, when Parliament determines that there is to be devolution, those who were previously in government and who call themselves democrats should be prepared to accept Parliament's democratic will.
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