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Mr. Hoon: Research has been conducted--the hon. Gentleman mentioned the PSI research, which was not nearly as depressing in its conclusion as he suggests. PSI's report stated:
- "Many of the potential problems identified before conditional fees were introduced seem to have been successfully addressed."
I add to that a further piece of evidence: more than 30,000 cases have now been agreed to be taken under conditional fees. Moreover, the rate of negotiation of those agreements has increased month-on-month and year-on-year, presumably as lawyers get more accustomed to operating under such agreements.
My Department has not received a single complaint on the operation of conditional fees funding--in contrast to the complaints that I receive daily on the deficiencies of legal aid. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will have had constituents writing to them and appearing at their surgeries to complain about the operation of legal aid, whereas, in my knowledge, constituents have not been complaining about the operation of conditional fees funding, which seems to be remarkably successful.
We continue to study carefully proposals on the operation of various contingency funds which have made to us by the Bar and by the Law Society. However, as our consultation document says, we are concerned that if we allow development of conditional fees and the creation of a fund, there is a clear danger that the best cases will be dealt with on a conditional fees basis, leaving weaker cases to the fund--therefore making it unlikely that the fund will be financially self-sustaining. Both the Bar and the Law Society are attempting to deal with that problem, and we await with interest the outcome of their efforts.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Does the Minister agree that one factor in the escalating cost of legal aid is the reduction in union membership? The fact is that, 20 years ago, there were 30 million trade unionists, every single one of whom would be represented free of charge--either by their union representatives, or by lawyers paid for by their representatives--in cases of personal injury at work, allowing them to make their case. Now, the number of trade unionists is just over 6 million, creating a gap that has undoubtedly made a massive contribution to the number of people in various types of employment who have to go to legal aid. We will have to take that factor into account.
Will the Minister take it from me, and from others, that one of the biggest issues in legal aid that the Government will have to address is that, regardless of what legal aid system is introduced, we are not convinced that people such as the Maxwells and the Levitts will be deprived of large legal aid sums--which should be going to the many thousands of people who want to fight their little case on its merits with the help of the legal aid system? That is
the problem. How will the Government deal with multi-million pound fraud cases? Will those cases continue to get those sums?
Mr. Hoon:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the excellent schemes operated by trade unions and their lawyers, which provide effective, specialist representation to a wide range of people who receive support as a result of their trade union membership. Indeed, my hon. Friend may well have seen towards the end of last year an interesting suggestion from John Monks on behalf of the Trades Union Congress that those schemes should be extended to people who are not trade union members, so that the expertise available could be used to benefit the generality. That is something to which we refer in the consultation document. It is an interesting development which I hope my hon. Friend would welcome.
On my hon. Friend's second point, about people in receipt of legal aid in large-scale fraud cases, I assure him that the Government will continue to bear down on those who seek to secure legal aid when they are not financially eligible. It is vital for the integrity of the scheme that we channel legal aid to those who need it, not to those who are disguising their assets overseas or elsewhere.
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham):
May I welcome the Minister's statement that his Department is looking further at the contingency fee fund concept? Within the profession, there is a feeling that if a choice has to be made between contingency fee funds and conditional fee agreements, there would be a strong preference in favour of the contingency fee fund because it avoids the conflict of interests already referred to and because it avoids the necessity of plaintiffs having to find the insurance premium.
On the question of medical claims and legal aid being confined to lawyers who have special expertise in that sphere, does the Minister understand that he will be creating monopolies, and that in many areas--for example, rural areas--there will be no lawyer to whom a plaintiff can turn for advice and assistance?
Mr. Hoon:
I am grateful for the right hon. and learned Gentleman's support. On the question of a fund, I suspect that he is speaking unconsciously on behalf of the Bar, which would probably prefer a fund to the arrangements that are currently in place. I am not entirely sure that the Law Society would prefer a fund in place of the opportunity for its individual members to take forward conditional fee agreements. However, that is clearly a matter for the professions, and we would await with interest the outcome of their deliberations.
I also suggest that it might well be possible to create a fund in a narrower category of cases, that it might be appropriate to establish a fund in discrete areas of litigation. Indeed, the Government are seriously considering taking appropriate powers, whenever Parliament might approve such a course, that would allow the creation of such funds. That might well be a way of reconciling the right hon. and learned Gentleman's concerns with mine.
I appreciate the right hon. and learned Gentleman's comments about medical negligence cases. These are sensitive and difficult cases which require extensive
investigation before any return can be made. That is why the Government are convinced that it is appropriate only for those who are experts to conduct such litigation. While the right hon. and learned Gentleman makes a good point about the importance of securing access to local justice and of having a lawyer available nearby, I hope he will agree that it is much better to have a lawyer available who knows what he or she is talking about and who has dealt with that kind of case before, rather than simply to go down the road to someone who might recently have done one's conveyancing but who knows nothing about medical negligence.
Mrs. Sylvia Heal (Halesowen and Rowley Regis):
Having been a magistrate for more than 20 years, I am well aware of the value of legal aid and, indeed, of the rising cost of legal aid. However, I am also aware that many people do not qualify for legal aid. Can my hon. Friend assure me that the Government's proposals will be fair to those people who currently do not qualify for legal aid?
Mr. Hoon:
I very much appreciate my hon. Friend's comments. The complaints that I referred to earlier, which people bring to their Members of Parliament in writing or at their surgeries, generally turn on financial eligibility for legal aid. The way in which successive Governments have controlled the cost of legal aid has been by bearing down on eligibility. Clearly, one option available to this Government to restrict the cost of legal aid is simply to continue to bear down on eligibility; to take out more and more people so that, ultimately, only a handful of people would qualify for legal aid. That was not the course on which we decided. We believe that it is much better to try to find the appropriate means of funding cases. That is why we propose an extension of conditional fee agreements. That will make the legal aid fund go further and allow us to concentrate it on those people and areas of real need. I hope that, in that way, I will be able to satisfy my hon. Friend's concerns.
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset):
The Minister will know that I have an interest in expert witnesses in personal injury cases. I wonder whether he can say more about how expert witnesses will be paid for. Some lawyers are telling them, "You should share the same risk as me, whether we win the case or not." That is inappropriate because the expert witness is supposed to be giving unbiased evidence to a court. What will the Minister do about that and how will he ensure that the losing litigant will not face a massive bill at the end? We must remember that the Department of Social Security is the first to be paid after a personal injury case is paid out.
Mr. Hoon:
I shall confine my remarks to personal injury and I hope that that will satisfy the hon. Gentleman's concern about expert witnesses. Expert witnesses appear in a range of cases. I share the hon. Gentleman's reservation at the prospect of such witnesses sharing in the costs of a case. One of the great weaknesses that we have identified about the way in which civil litigation operates is the development of an expert witness industry, where expert witnesses are available for any argument that a lawyer wishes to advance. Too many cases are made expensive simply because both sides have teams of expert witnesses and, inevitably, have to pay for them.
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