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Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the greatest assurances that the people of Kent could have would be one from the Minister today that Kent county council will be fully consulted and involved in the decision-making process? We hope that the decision will be completed as soon as possible, but we should like the county council to be fully involved.
Mr. Green: My right hon. and learned Friend is right. Kent county council has played, and is playing, an active and constructive role in bringing the project forward, and it is important that its ability to represent the people of Kent is recognised by full consultation during the negotiations.
The Minister will recognise the importance of avoiding secrecy, because, speaking in the House about the deal with London and Continental, she said:
As well as asking for those three assurances, I shall ask the Minister three questions. First, what type of freight does the Department think will be carried? We hear a lot about the freight benefits of the link. I assure the Minister that this is a genuine search for truth. Many, perhaps most, of the questions asked in the House are questions to which the questioner thinks he or she already knows the answer, but in this case, I genuinely have no idea of the answer, and no one connected to the project has ever satisfactorily explained it. We all agree that the line as planned will not be able to take any kind of heavy freight, but there is
vague talk of "high-value freight" being carried. I am not sure whether that means any more than parcel freight, and I should be grateful if the Minister would give some guidance.
My second question is whether it is feasible or practical for Eurostar to share the lines between Southfleet and London with the existing commuter traffic if we go for a phased project, with the first part of the line built to Southfleet and the rest built in stages afterwards. I have been assured by reasonably well-qualified railway engineers that the amount of commuter traffic using the lines from Canterbury and the Medway towns to London will mean that either we will have to cut the commuter traffic in the rush hour or Eurostar will not be able to run in the rush hour. If that is true, it suggests that the phasing of the project would be simply impractical.
My third question is whether the benefits of upgrading the existing track are being considered while the Government are looking at all the options available to them. Engineers say that, effectively, we could save 15 minutes from the journey for £1 billion. We are, broadly speaking, talking about spending £7 billion or £8 billion to save 35 minutes, and it seems that that proposal deserves full consideration.
We recognise that the channel tunnel is a great national achievement, but it is only half an achievement. Linking the tunnel to the rail network of this country is the other half. London and Continental has had many failings, not just the central failing of its passenger projections which has led to the current financial plight. More particularly, it has been determined to keep secret the fact that it is more convenient for the whole of the south-east of England to drive to Ashford and travel from there than to struggle in to Waterloo. Despite the best efforts of the excellent management and staff at the Ashford international passenger station, the marketing of the station by London and Continental has been inadequate. Perhaps that is a symbol of its lack of commercial acumen.
Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East):
It is perhaps appropriate that I follow the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) because I shared the job of co-chairman of the all-party channel tunnel group with his predecessor, Sir Keith Speed, for many years.
I wish to make two declarations of interest. First, as a former railwayman, I am still a member of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers--one of the reasons behind my interest in this great project. I am also the chairman of Travel West Midlands, a bus company based in Birmingham which is a subsidiary of National Express--itself a member of the London and Continental consortium. I ask the House to appreciate that I am not speaking on behalf of National Express. I have never had anything to do with the railway side of its operation, but I feel that such a connection should be on the record before I speak in the debate.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Mr. Fitzpatrick) on bringing this important subject to the attention of the House. In an able speech, he talked about the history of the project. However, he did not go back far enough. Those of us who have the doubtful benefit of old age can remember this project in the 1970s when, I must say, neither of our main parties came out with any great credit. The Channel Tunnel Bill was cancelled by the Labour Government shortly they were elected in 1974.
I say to my hon. Friend and other colleagues who feel that public money should be put into the project that one of the reasons given for the cancellation was that there were other priorities for public money. At that time, many of my hon. Friends were in favour of the cancellation of the project because they wanted public money spent on schools, hospitals and other matters with which the Government were directly involved. I must tell my hon. Friend that I would not hold my breath too long if he thinks that the Treasury is likely to come to the rescue of London and Continental, or anyone else.
I was more amused than angered by the intervention of the former Home Secretary, the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), who is no longer in his place. I do not know how any member of the previous Cabinet could jump up and defend his constituents against the effect of this project on their lives, given the enormous mess that the Conservatives made of it from beginning to end. I admire his cheek, if not the basis on which he made his intervention.
The hon. Member for Ashford and all of us are anxious that the link is built as quickly as possible. I attended the meeting in Birmingham last Friday to which my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Canning Town referred. The Fast Tracks to Europe group is unrealistic when it says that the project must not be phased. Whatever happens, it seems unlikely that the work will start at each end of the route and will meet in the middle. Some phasing is inevitable. It looks as if the southern section will be built first, because--let us be realistic--it is likely to be a lot cheaper.
I have seen the figures produced by Fast Tracks to Europe, which suggest that such an approach will cost money because of the loss of benefits, but I have yet to hear a real alternative. If no Government money is involved, and if the projections for Eurostar travel--receipts from which will go towards the building of the project--are accurate, some degree of phasing, unpalatable though it might be to us all, is inevitable.
Around 1991, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine)--that great social engineer of the previous Government--decided to change the route. I know that that decision suited some of my hon. Friends, and I congratulate them on the effectiveness of their campaign. When the right hon. Gentleman changed the route, companies such as Blue Circle found themselves to be sitting on valuable real estate in the Ebbsfleet area. Coincidentally, the public relations company involved with Blue Circle at that time had as one of its representatives the former vice-chairman of the Conservative party, Dame Angela Rumbold.
I wonder whether companies that made money out of the project have volunteered to put any of their extra profits into the cost of building the rail link--particularly that part of it north of their land which is more expensive
because of the need to tunnel under London. Cynic that I am, I would be surprised if any volunteer had come forward.
All of us want the project to benefit the rest of the country. Those of us who represent constituencies in the west midlands are no less anxious to see that happy event come about. What we have at present is the worst of both worlds. We have all the uncertainty about the future of the link, and we have no through trains to Europe. Indeed, the connecting trains to Waterloo have been removed by London and Continental, although many remain on the timetable. Last week, the Birmingham Evening Mail and the BBC highlighted the absurdity of a local train being held for eight minutes at Birmingham international station to allow for one of the Eurostars that do not exist as far as the west midlands is concerned.
I understand some of the difficulties in getting a safety case for the trains north of London. As far as I understand, they still only run between Manchester and somewhere like Bletchley. I should be grateful to the Minister if she would tell us what progress is being made to introduce those trains north of London, and whether the newspaper rumours about the trains being leased to Virgin or any other train operator for incorporation into their service are valid. No one north of London, and few people in London, have benefited from the project so far.
As the hon. Member for Ashford said, the link is a great engineering project, and all hon. Members attending this debate want to ensure that the original intentions of the Committee dealing with the channel tunnel are carried out. I am sorry if this sounds like a plea for medals for a rather undistinguished career, but I served on the first channel tunnel Committee in the 1970s--I remember, to my amusement, that there were only about 60 objectors then. When I served on the subsequent Committee in the mid-1980s, there were 12,000 objectors.
The hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait), who is no longer in the Chamber, illustrated the dilemma that arises from the channel tunnel rail link and the expansion of the railway system--all of us are in favour of expanding the network, until the trains run through our constituencies or past the bottom of our gardens. According to the hon. Lady, the prospect of an hourly train of 18 coaches going to Paris or Brussels makes life intolerable for her constituents. I think that she exaggerates. People who buy houses next to railway lines and then complain about the noise from trains do not endear themselves to me as a former railwayman, although some of my hon. Friends may take a different view. We want the benefits of the link to be brought to the rest of the country, as was intended, so I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can answer some of the points that have been made.
I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Canning Town is as realistic as I am about subsidy--he knows that Treasury involvement is unlikely. The fact that, across the country, road bridges are being strengthened to take 44 tonne lorries--that is a direct subsidy to the road haulage industry by the taxpayer--yet both the previous and current Governments said that public money cannot be found for the great project that is the channel tunnel rail link is an illustration of how we treat different forms of transport.
"I understand that no one in the House is privileged to see the contracts in any detail or to discuss them, on grounds of commercial confidentiality. It is a curious commercial enterprise that is clouded in mystery in one direction."--[Official Report, 25 April 1996; Vol. 276, c. 629.]
I am sure that the hon. Lady will endorse her own words and will not wish such secrecy to surround the project in future. Will she assure the House that full details of any agreement will be put in the Library for the perusal of Members?
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