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Mr. Green: Two events, one of which was a careful study of the map accompanying the helpful Library research paper, have inspired me to speak. The map, which shows Britain divided into regions, illustrates better than the eloquent remarks of my right hon. and hon. Friends the absurdity of the Government's proposal. Amendment No. 48 would have an ameliorative effect.
I declare a constituency interest. Many hon. Members have pointed out how absurd the regional boundaries are. The Government feebly defend the current system by saying that they accord with those of regional development agencies, but east Kent is already part of a European region. We have many economic ties with Europe because of the channel tunnel and links with Nord Pas-de-Calais and part of Wallonia.
Existing economic regions could sensibly be used for European elections, because businesses, local authorities and public bodies are used to working together. We could sell that idea to the people of Ashford and other parts of east Kent, but we will not be able to sell the idea that they have anything in common with the constituents of my hon. Friends the Members for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) and for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow). Those places are like the dark side of the moon to people who live in the blessed country of east Kent.
Mr. Gummer:
Is my hon. Friend aware that the situation is worse than that? Bedfordshire will be associated with east Kent, even though Bedford decides whether roads in East Anglia should be repaired. It is extremely difficult to understand how Bedfordshire and Kent could, by any stretch of the imagination, have the same economic, political or, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) suggested, religious
Mr. Green:
I agree with my right hon. Friend. I take his point about the ecclesiastical nonsense that is attached to the political nonsense. I feel particularly strongly about that, as the home of the Bishop of Maidstone is in the village in which I live. He has made the point that, although the Church of England may be run from Canterbury, the Church in Kent is run from the village of Charing.
The Government's assertion that the regions accord with reality is self-evidently nonsense. They make the wider point that other countries do well under this system, but the tradition of parliamentary representation in other member states of the European Union is different at every level. New Zealand's use of the German additional member system of proportional representation does not work, because the New Zealand electorate treat their representatives as do the British electorate: they want them on call and they want to know who and where they are. The system works perfectly well in Germany, but not in New Zealand. It is invalid to argue that, because a system works elsewhere in the European Union, it will work in this country.
My second inspiration was the speech of the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing). She seemed to think that the amendment expressed a deep-seated dislike of the European Parliament and would damage it. The opposite is the truth. The amendment would strengthen the European Parliament and would be less damaging than the Government's proposal because there would be more chance of MEPs being identified with their constituencies.
It would be better if the boundary commission took all sensitive decisions. It would be bad if politicians were seen to be interfering with the structure of a Parliament that is deeply embedded in the public's affections--or, indeed, disaffections.
Mr. Bermingham:
I declare an interest. I was the instructing solicitor in Foot v. the boundary commission in 1982, which is the lead case in this matter.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman entirely. Allegations of political interference are deeply damaging to democracy, which was the case with allegations made in the late 1960s about the Home Secretary interfering with parliamentary boundary commissions. That is why the Americans, for example, have taken the matter out of the hands of politicians and put it, bluntly, into the hands of computers. We should examine the matter carefully if we are to exclude the boundary commission, which considers parity and community of interest rather than size and numbers. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister would be so kind as to listen to words of wisdom from people experienced in these matters who know the dangers of ignoring the commission.
Mr. Green:
The hon. Gentleman is right. I hope that the Minister will give weight to his words about damage to democracy. The situation is as bad as that, and the Government must address that point.
The European Parliament has largely excited apathy in this country. The election turnout has always been low. If the general public think that there is a whiff of
gerrymandering about the election for the European Parliament, they are even less likely to hold the institution in high regard. The European Parliament is an important democratic institution, and it is the duty of the House to try to strengthen it, but the Government, for all their pro-European rhetoric, are heading in the wrong direction.
The amendment would improve the Government's proposals. Why have they chosen a particularly damaging proportional system using large regions? As has been said several times, the Home Secretary's hostility to proportional representation is so deeply embedded that he proposes its most damaging form for these elections in the hope that the system will be discredited in the eyes of the Jenkins commission and will not be adopted for any Parliament about which he cares more than he does about the European Parliament.
Ms Quin:
I at least agree with the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) that the European Parliament is an important institution. We do not believe that its role will be undermined by the Bill.
Perhaps predictably, the amendments led to a wide-ranging debate, which at some points seemed to veer into what we shall discuss shortly--the subject of voting systems--and at others included references to the internal procedures of the Conservative party, which were raised by the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers). There were even references to the difficulties in this Parliament faced by the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) in his daily duties.
It is certainly possible to secure representation of valid interests within a regional framework. As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) reminded us, that happens in other countries. Listening to some of what was said earlier, I reflected on my own experiences in the European Parliament. The issues that I pursued most vigorously in my early years of membership--issues such as shipbuilding, the fishing industry and European funds--relate to a regional dimension, and could be satisfactorily fitted into a regional framework.
Mr. Bercow:
Will the Minister give way?
Ms Quin:
I know that hon. Members are keen for us to make progress, and I have been keen to listen to all the views that have been expressed so far; if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will continue with my speech.
The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) referred to corporate and business interests that often lobby MEPs. I believe that it was the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) who mentioned the regional development agencies that we are setting up,
and the business role that they will have. That relates very clearly and easily to the regional boundaries proposed in the Bill.
At one point, the hon. Member for Ryedale stated categorically that Dover had more in common with Calais than with Milton Keynes, but then ruined that apparently knowledgeable assertion by saying that he did not know or care about what happened in the rest of Europe, which presumably includes Calais.
Mr. Bercow:
Will the Minister give way?
Ms Quin:
I will give way once, but I am anxious to make progress.
Mr. Bercow:
As I did not speak in the debate, it does not seem unreasonable of me to intervene.
I was a little worried by the Minister's definition of valid interests. I am not sure why she thinks that it is for her to determine what constitutes valid interests, in the context of parliamentary representation in the European Parliament. [Interruption.] It is no good laughing at the point; I hope that the Minister will seek to answer it.
Ms Quin:
I certainly will. By "valid interests" I meant issues that come within the European Union's ambit and relate to the work of MEPs. Those are not interests that I have decided; they are interests that are governed by directives and other action at European level.
For example, I referred to the fishing industry in connection with regional interests. The fishing industry is greatly affected by directives, and by a host of European rules and regulations. That is not my judgment; it arises naturally in the course of work in the European institutions and the European Parliament. That is what I mean by valid interests. There are a great many with which MEPs deal now, and they will be able to deal with them very satisfactorily in the framework proposed in the Bill.
Opposition Members' speeches featured many inconsistencies in regard to size. They criticised considerations relating to size, and then proposed the division of Scotland into two in a rather arbitrary way--as the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) pointed out. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed rightly drew attention to some of the geographical absurdities in the present arrangement, and--again rightly, in my view--said that they could be better addressed in the proposed regional framework.
I believe that a strong and democratic case can be made out for the regional divisions proposed in the Bill. I think that they make a great deal of sense in European terms, and that they will deal with the issues that the European Parliament will have to handle.
Let me now refer to some of the other amendments in the group, to which other hon. Members spoke--referring, in particular, to the role of the boundary commission. I see no need to involve the commission in this instance, when England is following regional boundaries that--as we know--were established by the previous Government, and have been widely accepted.
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