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5.45 pm
Mr. Green: My hon. Friend is right. There is an exact equivalence, which is why the Committee should accept the amendments.
The Government have made a lot of noise about their presidency and what they will achieve in the six months. May I make the modest suggestion that an historic step forward, which would be popular in this country and extremely welcome in Gibraltar, would be the Government's using their presidency to accept the amendments and giving democratic rights to the people of Gibraltar.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Ms Joyce Quin):
This has been an interesting debate, and I recognise the strength of feeling that has been evident in the speeches of many hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill), who raised this issue on
I found the arguments of the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney) less convincing. I was grateful that he began by saying that he was not filibustering. That was good to hear. He also said that he would not try to widen the debate to a general debate on Gibraltar, although it has been widened somewhat.
The right hon. Gentleman spectacularly dodged the question, addressed to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), why the previous Government had not sought to amend the legislation, or whether they would have included Gibraltar if they had introduced a Bill to change the voting system for the European Parliament as the right hon. Gentleman proposes. He was silent on the matter.
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
May I help the hon. Lady by reminding her that I said that we recognised, as did her party, before the first direct elections and subsequently, that the form of direct elections that we had adopted--European constituencies based on parliamentary constituencies--made it difficult to accommodate the matter. That was the view of her party in opposition, which never sought to persuade us to take action on it. Having decided to change the system, the Government have now provided an opportunity to redress a wrong that should be put right.
Ms Quin:
I find that even less convincing than when the right hon. Gentleman said it the first time round. The previous Government were in power for 18 years. At various points during that time, European constituency boundaries were changed. They never raised the matter.
The right hon. Gentleman thought that we would say that Spain would not like the proposed change, so we would not go ahead with it. I am not prepared to say that at all this evening, although I notice that the right hon. Gentleman's colleague in the other place said something similar on behalf of the Opposition there. He said:
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
The Minister says that she will not say that Spain will not like it. What does she think Spain's reaction would be if the Government accepted the amendment?
Ms Quin:
I said that I am not going to say that Spain would not like it as a reason for not accepting the amendments.
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
I accept that that is the argument that the Minister is advancing, but what is the
Ms Quin:
As that is not the argument that I am advancing, the hon. Gentleman's argument is hypothetical. It would seem that his question has been answered by his colleague in another place, Lord Moynihan.
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
Will the Minister give way?
Ms Quin:
I shall not keep on giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, but I shall do so on this occasion.
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
I am grateful to the Minister. My noble Friend is not a Minister and I am not advancing any particular point of policy. I am merely asking the Minister a question, and a simple question. It may not be part of her argument but she is a Minister and it is a legitimate question for me to ask her. What is the Government's assessment of Spain's reaction if the Government accepted the amendment and tried to move things forward?
Ms Quin:
As that is not central to my argument, it is not appropriate for me to make such an assessment. The issue that the right hon. Gentleman has raised is not a stumbling block when it comes to the proposed legislation before us.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) referred to the real difficulties. I am grateful to him for what he said even though I reach a rather different conclusion. At least the hon. Gentleman addressed the real legal issues that are at stake.
Various hon. Members have referred to the departements d'outre mer and the territoires d'outre mer. Fortunately for the territories involved, they were covered by the appropriate legislation at the beginning. There is a different historical setting and the territories are counted as part of metropolitan France. They are, for example, able to vote in domestic elections. Opposition Members may envy the status of those areas, but they are not relevant to Gibraltar, to the terms of the amendment or to the Bill.
Mr. Gill:
In the Minister's opinion, is there any legal bar to the people of Gibraltar being included in the electoral roll of an English region at the next European elections?
Ms Quin:
I am coming to that point. The legal arguments are central to the point of view that the Government are taking.
Gibraltarians are unable to vote in European parliamentary elections by virtue of the second annex of the 1976 Act on direct elections to the European Parliament. The annex restricts the application of the Act to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland only, to the exclusion of other UK territories such as Gibraltar, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, to which the EC treaties apply in part.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock rightly referred to differences between the arrangements that affect Gibraltar and the Channel Islands or the Isle of
Man, but those differences are not relevant to the Bill, which covers all those territories, including Gibraltar. That is the point.
Mr. Gill:
The Minister is now addressing the nub of the question. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and I maintain that there is no bar to Gibraltarians' being put on the electoral roll of one of the new regions in the United Kingdom. Does the hon. Lady accept that much of the new European law that is applied in Gibraltar has to be put on the statute book in Gibraltar and that that is done because of Gibraltar's relationship to the United Kingdom? However, it is not stated in directives that they apply to the United Kingdom and Gibraltar. It is assumed that Gibraltar is part of the United Kingdom for such purposes. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. It is--
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not make a second speech in an intervention.
Ms Quin:
Our understanding of the legal situation is that Gibraltar cannot be included in the way that is suggested. That view seems to be shared by the Opposition spokesman in another place. We are not making a judgment hastily; we closely examined the evidence. It seems that it is not possible to include Gibraltar in the way the hon. Gentleman describes.
Mr. Mackinlay:
My hon. Friend has referred to the inclusion of Gibraltar along with the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. There is a substantive difference in law. The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not in the European Union. The treaties apply in part to those territories but they are not in the EU. People who live in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man do not have EU citizenship, whereas the people of Gibraltar do. Gibraltarians are in the EU, although in a special category.
"We--
meaning the Conservative Opposition--
"recognise the formidable practical difficulties in resolving this issue, in that any alteration to the status quo would require the agreement of all member states, including Spain."--[Official Report, House of Lords, 26 November 1997; Vol. 583, c. 1052.]
I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman seems not to be on message with his colleagues in another place. The Opposition must try to arrive at a consistent line.
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