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Mr. Corbyn: I am interested in what my hon. Friend has said, and I am pleased that he accepts the principles of ILO 138. If and when ratification takes place, that convention will be part of British law. I assume that all legislation, including European Union directives, will have to be compatible with it.
Mr. Boateng: We are satisfied that when we have overcome the technical difficulties and taken into account the special considerations that relate to children and young people between 16 and 18 and to younger children who live on farms, no aspect of the directive or domestic law will conflict with the ILO convention responsibilities. All our work is designed to bring that about.
Mr. Nicholls: The Minister mentions farming. Are the Government prepared to consider the case that could be made for replicating the narrow circumstances in which
children under 13 can currently be employed? The case for having no exceptions could be argued on its merits, but there is one exception in the Bill. If the Minister cannot tell us his view today, will he at least say that he does not have a closed mind and is prepared to consider the issue?
Mr. Boateng: We certainly do not have a closed mind, and we are actively examining that issue. It is important to explore and take on board the needs, concerns and practices of agricultural communities, and officials are currently charged with that responsibility. We are satisfied that we can move forward in this area and ratify the convention. That is our objective, and we are determined to fulfil it. I am grateful to my hon. Friends for the work that they have done in that field.
Several hon. Members have referred to the abuse of regulations and breaches of the law in this country, and local authorities' responsibilities in that regard. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) referred to the specific responsibilities of local authorities. Local authority experience varies. My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes gave a good example of how the North East Lincolnshire local authority is actively involved in identifying abuse and working to solve it. I congratulate that local authority on its efforts. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North also has considerable experience--on which we are anxious to draw--in this area.
Abuse occurs particularly in the semi-informal sweatshops that have developed in some communities, and the local authorities are clearly having real problems dealing with it. While recognising the resource issues involved--I am afraid that I cannot give local authorities much comfort in that regard--we must ensure that we promote best practice. We must also encourage local authorities to work with voluntary organisations. The Stop Child Labour campaign is a classic example of what may be achieved when voluntary charitable organisations work in conjunction with local authorities, with the full support and co-operation of Government. We shall seek ways of advancing our agenda of good practice in this area within the limited resources currently available.
In conclusion, I turn to the future programme of work. Hon. Members have asked what the Government intend to do over and above the measures that I have outlined. I pay particular regard to the points made by my hon. Friends the Members for Bolton, West (Ms Kelly), for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer), for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding)--who speaks with considerable authority about children's issues--and for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Mr. Goggins). I shall show the House the way forward.
We must not let the matter rest with changes to regulations designed to satisfy minimum EC standards. We envisage a larger programme of work. The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry and I have set up a review of all child employment legislation. The review will be undertaken by a group of officials from the Department of Health, the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department for Education and Employment, the Cabinet Office and the Health and Safety Executive, all of which are all players and stakeholders in this field. Expert practical advice will be provided by the National Child Employment Network, which provides, inter alia, a forum for people who work in the field of child employment to exchange best practice information.
The review will also seek the views of other interested parties drawn from a wide cross-section of interest in this area. We want to hear from the agricultural community and from those involved in newspaper publishing. There is no threat to the paper round, and there never has been.
I want to make particular reference to the role of the Low Pay Unit, whose work in this area is first class. It has an enormous contribution to make as we take the policy forward. I have written to ask it to participate in the research sub-group, and I hope that it will accept that invitation.
The terms of reference of the review working group are to consider the present arrangements for protecting children, including regulatory arrangements, levels of protection and enforcement; to examine any research or other evidence that it considers necessary from any source, including interested organisations and individuals; to make any necessary investigations; to draw up any proposals necessary to ensure that children's health, safety, welfare and development are strictly protected, and that they are shielded from exploitation; and to report to us by the end of 1998. We do not intend to hang around. There is much to be done, and I sense a determination in the House that we should do it.
Mr. Pond:
With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for that encouraging statement. All of us know that he shares our commitment to doing something about this problem with some urgency. His statement will reassure us that action will be taken. We have waited 66 years, so I suppose that another few minutes will not make much difference.
We have had a good debate, and it has shown the importance of the subject. It has highlighted the expertise and efforts of hon. Members who have worked on this issue for many years. I am happy to say that several hon. Members made generous comments about the Bill. Such generosity does not apply to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Angela Smith), who revealed my nocturnal habits, or to those of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Mr. Cranston), who reminded us that I have been at this since 1977. That is not as far back as 1933, but it is on the way.
In case any hon. Members still have any doubts about the importance of this issue, I should say that, a few minutes ago, I was handed a Health and Safety Executive press release. It plans a prosecution following an investigation into asbestos removal activities by a firm during 1994, 1995 and 1998. That firm employed three boys of school age in contravention of the Employment of Women, Young Persons and Children Act 1920.
The debate has been useful, because it has clarified a number of issues. There has been a difference of opinion on some of them, and much agreement on others.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac), the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) and others referred to the number of hours worked, and to Sunday working in particular. I was pleased to hear my hon. Friend the Minister reaffirm the fact that the proposal by the previous Government on this matter is dead in the water. We must limit work on a Sunday because it would mean a considerable expansion in the number of children working and would open up a new area of children's employment.
I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes that it is not only about whether work will take place--clearly it will--but about who undertakes that work on a Sunday. There was a danger that we could substitute children for adults in the Sunday trading sector.
The 12-hour limit was mentioned and I hope that the Minister will seriously consider that in the interdepartmental review he has announced. It is an appropriate limit, and not an arbitrary one. I can tell the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) that there is evidence that once hours exceed that level, there is a trade-off in terms of educational achievement.
Some hon. Members felt that the Bill was too lax in its provisions, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Preston (Audrey Wise) and for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). There were points during their speeches when I felt that the Bill was mainly concerned with building regulations--that is, that chimneys should be wide enough to allow children to go up and down them without hurting themselves. I assure my hon. Friends that my purpose was rather more progressive, and I intended to move towards the solution that they also wish to achieve.
I was pleased by the assurances from my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North and the Minister that there is no suggestion that the Bill would contravene ILO resolution 138, which the UK will ratify as soon as possible. The UK will also implement the EC directive without further delay. We have heard concrete statements from the Minister about the intention to move forward as we try to provide children with the sort of protection for which hon. Members have expressed the need.
We have heard a number of important assurances and I know that I and the supporters of the Bill will be looking carefully to see that the momentum is maintained in terms of achieving the objectives. I am pleased that the Low Pay Unit--which has worked so long and hard on this issue--will be an integral part of the review process. On the basis of the assurances we have received during the debate, I am sure that the Bill's supporters would feel it appropriate that I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
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