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Mr. St. Aubyn: Surely the hon. Gentleman recognises that some children are not academically inclined. If the whole focus is on academic achievement, it will be hard for such children to learn that principle of self-esteem.
Mr. Hopkins: I do not agree. Low self-esteem and low performance at school is characteristic of our society; in effect, we tell a large number of young people, "You're not going to succeed in school, so don't bother." I believe that all children, at whatever level, should be able to achieve their maximum potential. That means that we must focus on their education. If they are failing in school, we should give them extra resources and attention; we should not send them out to work or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) would say, give them a brush and stick them up a chimney.
11.25 am
Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam): I congratulate the hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond) on initiating this debate and on introducing the Bill. I shall briefly outline the views of Liberal Democrats on this very important topic.
I agree with the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice), who said that, all too often in the House, we take the view that, simply by enacting legislation, we can transform things--we believe that we can do far more to solve problems than we actually can. Nevertheless, as the hon. Gentleman recognised, we can make a difference through legislation, although we should not exaggerate what we can achieve.
The legal framework covering child protection in employment dates from the 1920s and 1930s--the era of William Brown and his schooldays. In reading up for the debate, I was interested to note that child protection was only a small part of the purpose of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which dealt primarily with criminal justice issues. I am sure that William Brown would have been delighted to know that Parliament decided, at that time, to abolish the whipping of children under 14. That gives us an idea of how far things have moved on--or, at least, how far we hope we have moved on.
I also noticed, in preparing for the debate, how often such issues are debated in the House because of a private Member's Bill rather than Government legislation. Although I welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Gravesham has promoted the Bill, I hope that the Government will introduce their own legislation. I await with interest the Minister's response today.
The debate helps to keep child employment on the public agenda. My hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) rightly said that the fact that so long has elapsed since Parliament legislated in this area is disquieting. A number of concerns need to be addressed. Four out of 10 children in Britain currently do some form of work. Seven out of 10 working children work illegally. That must be a cause of concern to the House.
The MORI survey commissioned by the Trades Union Congress in 1996 revealed that 20 per cent. of 11-year-olds and 23 per cent. of 12-year-olds were working illegally, as current legislation provides for a minimum starting age of 13. Four out of 10 worked before 7 am and half the children polled worked after 7 pm, both of which are illegal.
The Liberal Democrats do not want to stop children taking the opportunity to work, as it gives them a sense of independence and responsibility--for example, independence of an over-reliance for entertainment on the television, the internet and computers. However, work must not inhibit a child's learning, and his schooling and family life must not be sacrificed or put at risk.
Interestingly, the work of the Low Pay Unit demonstrates that the work being undertaken by young people is very diverse. We are not talking merely of paper rounds and of earning pocket money. For many children, it is about supplementing the family income.
The problem is not only the age of the legislation. The legislative framework is there and, arguably, could be made to work. The Employment of Children Act 1973--a private Member's Bill that was enacted--provided a way forward. The Minister is not in his place at the moment, but perhaps I shall have a chance to intervene on him later to ask why the 1973 Act was never implemented and why the Government will not take the opportunity to review it, to enable it to be used. As the excellent Library briefing demonstrates, the Act provides a route through regulation, which would enable considerable tightening of the law without the need for lengthy review and the process that I am sure the Minister will outline. The Government have a tool available to make a difference.
A serious issue is compliance, by children, parents and employers, as well as the other agencies that have a responsibility under the legislation. To echo something that several hon. Members have said, including my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, when passing such measures, we must be mindful of the fact that by imposing new duties, particularly on local authorities, without giving the necessary additional resources to do the job, we shall be imposing burdens that will ultimately result in the authorities not doing those things, choosing not to do other things that they already have a duty to do or cutting other services. Local authorities are already under pressure and we must be mindful of that fact when we deal with such legislation.
Non-compliance is the most crucial issue. Why is there non-compliance? Is there a mass movement of civil disobedience against the 1933 Act? I think not. Sadly, non-compliance has much more to do with complete and utter ignorance of the existing legislation, on the part of not merely the public at large but those in authority at a local level and those acting as employers. Some of that ignorance may be wilful, but much of it is because of the lack of available information to make people aware of their obligations. Therefore, awareness raising and information must be an important part of this debate, the Government's response and the way in which we proceed.
The European Union directive seems to provide a basis for moving forward, and the Government are reviewing matters to find out how they can bring it into our law. I should be interested to hear from the Minister how soon that will be. We have been told that it should be by the end of this calendar year.
This debate is a useful way to increase the awareness of the House and the general public. The previous Government sought a number of opt-outs from the EU directive, and we have heard arguments from Conservative Members that the problem is not that great, so there is no need to legislate for change. The evidence presented today and much of the other evidence supplied to us in the form of briefings demonstrate that there is a problem and a need for action.
Mr. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale, East):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond) on his choice of child employment for his Bill and on the eloquent way in which he opened the debate. Given his years of campaigning against low pay and on employment issues generally, he must be satisfied to have produced a Bill that will strengthen the protection for children at work.
Perhaps the most important function of Parliament is to afford protection to those who are not always in a position to defend themselves. We have a special responsibility to protect children. I sincerely hope that the Bill and the arguments advanced today will help to strengthen substantially the safeguards for children who work.
I am pleased that, in the main, we have not been talking about children who take on small tasks to earn a little extra pocket money. We all know youngsters who go baby-sitting or clean cars--indeed, some hon. Members, including myself, have children who do so. I agree with my hon. Friend that excessive work is not character-building for children, but, at the right time and place and with the right controls, a little work of that sort can help to foster self-reliance and a sense of maturity. At that level, it is to be welcomed. What is not welcome is the exploitation of children at work, and the Bill would remove such exploitation.
Britain has long-standing legislation to prohibit children from working in certain locations and to impose age and time limits. All that the Bill seeks to do is what the Government are pledged to do in so many other areas of life--to modernise, humanise and move towards conditions that are appropriate for the new millennium.
We have heard about research findings on the issue, and I have further evidence that reinforces the general picture. A couple of years ago, the Greater Manchester Low Pay Unit--an excellent organisation which offers expert advice to low-paid people and vulnerable workers--carried out research in the Manchester area to find out how many children are in part-time work. In a
survey that included a substantial number of 13, 14 and 15-year-olds, it found that nearly half were doing some form of paid work. Just over one third were involved in some sort of delivery work, typically milk and newspaper rounds, and one fifth were regular baby-sitters. However, I was more disturbed to find that nearly one third did shop work, waiting, manual labouring, catering or contract cleaning. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Audrey Wise) that that work is more appropriately done by adult workers, particularly unemployed adults who are desperate for work.
Many of those jobs are done illegally, either because they are deemed by law to be unsuitable or because of the hours. Interestingly, the unit found that few children worked more hours than they were supposed to, but large numbers either started too early or finished too late. About 40 per cent.--nearly half--worked before 7 am and 30 per cent. finished after 7 pm. Also, 70 per cent. of the working schoolchildren polled in the Manchester survey earned less than £2 an hour, with one sixth receiving less than £1 an hour. It is a source of great concern that some 30 per cent. of those surveyed claimed to have started work before they reached the age of 13, another clear breach of the law.
As hon. Members have said, passing laws is not enough. Parents and employers should exercise proper responsibility and ensure that children are not employed in illegal circumstances. It would be much better for all concerned if the Bill were passed into law and the Government gave a strong lead by backing a tough approach and encouraging more rigorous enforcement.
Much is already being done to improve the situation. I welcome the Government's commitment on the European directive and the signs that they understand that further improvements are necessary, but it cannot be left to local authorities to police the system. They have an important role to play, but the strong message from the debate is that they will require substantial further resources to do it. They must be given a strong lead nationally.
I wish to emphasise two aspects of the Bill further. First, I applaud the provisions in part II that make transparent the obligations of public authorities, employers, schools and parents. The proposed work permits offer the prospect of an approach altogether more rigorous than the current system of registration. That would assist public authorities to police and monitor the system and in ensuring a proper and helpful relationship between a child's welfare and progress at school and his or her eligibility to undertake part-time work.
Secondly, I strongly support the strict limits on Sunday working. The previous Government favoured greater deregulation, but I believe that that would be a grave mistake, not for reasons of religious observance, which are a matter of personal choice and belief, but in the interests of family life. There is great anxiety about family life, and to reinforce Sunday as a regular family day would help us all. Sunday is also a day for ensuring that homework is finished and that proper preparations are made for the week ahead.
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