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Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge): Collecting the eggs.
Mr. Paice: My hon. Friend mentions the collection of eggs, but my hens did not seem to lay many.
I appreciate that the definition has been taken from other legislation, but clause 19 defines work as
I am wholly opposed to the exploitation of children, but some of the activities traditionally undertaken by children, even those below the age of 13, do not involve exploitation but may still be caught by the Bill.
Dr. Nick Palmer (Broxtowe):
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the European directive appears to be fairly explicit in this regard? Although virtually everyone would accept that a little private introduction to the family farm would not run into legal difficulties, if we attempted to define it in the Bill as a legal activity, we should run into trouble with the directive.
Mr. Paice:
That is a perfectly fair point. The European directive does not make specific mention of the case that
Why do children work? The hon. Member for Gravesham said that a child's income can often be an important part of the household's income. It is perfectly reasonable for hon. Members to be worried about that. This is probably not the right time to deal with that issue, but we should not blind ourselves to the fact that the children themselves value their income. We live in a society in which teenagers are besieged by advertisements that target them directly. Teenagers are presented with a raft of material goods that they ought to have if they are to be up with the times. They need much more money than I dare say most of us required when we were 14 or 15. It is unrealistic to expect many parents to provide sufficient pocket money to pay for the compact discs, clothes and other things that teenagers want. Therefore, we must recognise that it can be important for children to earn some money.
The hours set out in the Bill are more restrictive than those under the European directive. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) mentioned out-of-term work. The Bill specifies a maximum of five hours a day and 25 hours a week, whereas the directive stipulates seven hours a day and 35 hours a week. That brings me back to the point about ages.
I entirely recognise the logic in saying that 25 hours a week is probably more than enough for a 13 or 14-year-old. However, a 15-year-old, who might have only a few months to go before leaving school, should be able to work longer hours. I hope that the 35-hour week specified in the directive could be incorporated into the Bill, especially given that the Bill provides a full two-week break, or proper holiday, which is perfectly right. In those circumstances, there is a case for arguing for a 35-hour week for older children.
Audrey Wise:
How long a holiday does the hon. Gentleman take? Is it only a fortnight?
Mr. Paice:
I am sorry that the hon. Lady wants to lower the tone of the debate to one of such stupidity. She knows perfectly well that the holidays in this place are very different from school holidays. I am talking about the two-week holiday specified in the Bill; I completely support that. Children are to be entitled to two weeks away from work; what they do with that time is entirely up to them. I am simply suggesting a maximum of 35 hours a week for 15-year-olds for the weeks other than the two when it is proposed that they should not be allowed to work.
Part of my concern in that regard relates to what I consider to be one of the Bill's unintended consequences. I am thinking about the effect on the work experience, not jobs, effectively undertaken as part of a child's education. It is a matter for which I had some responsibility under the previous Government, who did quite a lot to improve the entitlement to one or two weeks' work experience during compulsory schooling and to make sure that it was far more effectively used. Instead
of young people sitting and watching for a week or being given a mundane sweeping job, we set out to make it a much more structured process, with clear outcomes demanded and continuous assessment. However, even that could be caught by the Bill unless there is a specific exemption. If the hon. Member for Gravesham were to say that he did not intend that to be the case, I would respect that. That is why I suggest that it is an unintended consequence of his Bill.
The Health and Safety (Young Persons) Regulations 1997, which are clearly linked to the issue, certainly apply to work experience. I had the somewhat difficult task of working out how they should be implemented in respect of work experience for schoolchildren.
We all understand the value of work experience and would not wish it to be jeopardised by the Bill. However, it seems clear to me that it would be caught, so I urge the hon. Gentleman to address that and the issue of a full working week. If a child of 15 is to undertake work experience, it has to be a full week, rather than the 25 hours proposed in the Bill. That is making the rash assumption that we are talking about out-of-term work. Actually, work experience usually takes place during term time, so it may well be caught by the 12-hour week. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that a specific exemption for work experience may be an appropriate way forward.
I have spoken for longer than I intended. I conclude by saying that it is unacceptable for young children to work very long hours or in onerous conditions, as it can damage their education and their health. Although we do not talk about it very much, it can also destroy their childhood, which is very precious and, in this day and age, is far too short for most of them.
We must not believe that we can solve everything. Whatever we do, it will not stop every accident. It will not stop one item in the Evening Standard--the ubiquitous gangs of traffic lights windscreen cleaners, who are probably self-employed. However, we can make a difference. As the hon. Gentleman wrote in his article in the Parliamentary Review,
Mrs. Llin Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme):
First, I should declare an interest as a trustee of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and a trustee and patron of a number of smaller charities which do such good work to help and protect children. Let me say how delighted I am to be asked to support the Bill and how pleased I am that my hon. Friend the Member
What image does the words "child labour" bring to mind? Is it the children of Victorian Britain sent up dark chimneys or down black mines--the children of the industrial revolution? Or is it children in the sweatshops of the so-called third world, tied to looms, held in debt bondage or working in dangerous factories in conditions of slavery? Whatever image it is, it will be one of overworked, underpaid exploitation. Although it has to be recognised that there are good employers, far too many working children in Britain, while not experiencing conditions as bad as those I have mentioned, nevertheless face unacceptable working practices.
All of us present today are here to stand up for the rights of children. We know that we have the power to change things--and what better place to start than on our own doorstep? Many people react with disbelief when told that a large percentage of the 2 million working children in our affluent country are more often than not employed illegally, exploited and subjected to physical dangers. They may not be the dangers that we conjure up in our minds, but we must address them. It is more than time that the law was brought up to date to protect working children and, today, thanks to my hon. Friend's Bill, we have the opportunity to do so.
There was a time when if children went to school at all, it was seen as an interruption of their working hours rather than a necessity or right. Later, when the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 was introduced, the difference between the minimum school-leaving age and the age when employment was allowed was very narrow, so the line between work and education was much clearer.
Since then, the school-leaving age has been raised to 16, widening the gap and allowing children to seek an extended variety of part-time employment. As my hon. Friend said, sadly, the Employment of Children Act 1973, which was introduced to give local authorities certain enforcement powers, was never implemented. Although the Children Act 1989 stresses the welfare and educational needs of children, no effort has been made to implement the legislation, which would have taken into account the changed circumstances of the higher school-leaving age.
We have been left with totally inadequate legislation that is hardly ever enforced or understood, and, for the most part, is ignored by employer, child, parent, school and local authority. As the my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health well knows, in England and Wales the legislation rests with the Department of Health, the enforcement with local education authorities, and the responsibility for the employment of 16 and 17-year-olds with the Department for Education and Employment, under the employment section, because, under United Kingdom law, 16 and 17-year-olds are not children but young people. It all adds to the confusion, as the Minister will recognise. Indeed, only yesterday I received a letter from him about child labour, stating:
Hon. Members will note from my hon. Friend's letter that he does not intend to ignore article 32 of the United Nations convention on the rights of the child, which seeks to protect children from exploitation at work that would damage their health or education. Indeed, knowing his track record, I would not expect him to do so. Perhaps he will also see all this as a crying need for a Minister for children, or, at the very least, a children's commissioner. Perhaps the review that he has set up in respect of child employment will also consider establishing a complaints procedure for children, preferably with a children's commissioner.
I also want to bring to the attention of the House a letter that a lady wrote to me in support of the Bill. She has three daughters, aged 17, 15 and 12. All have at some time been employed delivering papers six evenings a week. They live in a rural village. One daughter was paid £3.70 a week. Another, whose round covered a slightly larger area, was paid £5 a week. The third, who had a much larger area of delivery, was paid about £6.50 a week, because she had to go outside the village into the country on main roads without footpaths. The employer recognised the danger and decided to give her a little more money.
One of the daughters also collected the money for the paper bills because it was more convenient for people further out in the country to pay in that way. If the paper bill was, for example, £2.76, she might be given £3, with the extra money being a tip. However, she was expected to take that money back to the newsagent, who decided whether she was entitled to the tip, or even a percentage of it.
The mother recently found that the 12-year-old was working illegally, so she has stopped her. The newsagent should have known. This is a genuine case of dangerous exploitation of young people. As the Minister knows, cases of exploitation of children are almost never pursued. If the mother had taken the case to the local authority, it would have been able to do very little about it.
I received another letter from a lady about the Children (Performances) Regulations 1968. She had encouraged her children to take part in amateur shows. They had got together with friends to form their own group. They enjoyed singing and dancing, providing entertainment for elderly people. They felt that they were making a contribution to the community. The lady said that there must be hundreds of children who do constructive things rather than going around terrorising their neighbours and experimenting with alcohol and drugs, and that we should recognise their work. She believes that the regulations are too restrictive and need to be updated for a modern world. They crush children's dreams, ambitions and enterprise. They must be reconsidered. Children need to be encouraged away from the television and computer games to use their talents and imagination in live performances. That gives them confidence to appear before people and knowledge of the world outside the home.
"any tasks, duties or other work undertaken by virtue of a contract, whether express or implied and . . . whether orally or in writing, in connection with a trade or occupation carried on for profit"--
profit is clearly the objective in owning a farm, although many farmers would say that there is not much profit in it at the moment--
"whether or not the person undertaking the work receives any reward for his labour."
I am not an expert in the interpretation of the law, but my understanding is that that definition would cover the activities to which I have referred. I hope that the promoter of the Bill will consider that point carefully and not adopt too blinkered an approach, if I may put it that way, to the 13 years of age threshold.
"Much of this employment is wholly beneficial".
That was slightly stronger than his speech this morning, but it is a perfectly admirable statement.
"Full implementation of the Young Workers Directive in respect of adolescents will involve legislation being passed by DTI (in the case of most young workers) and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (in the case of sea-based young workers). A review of our reservation on Article 32 of the Convention will need to take account of the detailed implementation
13 Feb 1998 : Column 687proposals. The timetables for implementing both sets of regulations are currently unclear. Officials here are in contact with the two departments".
No doubt they will need to be in contact with many more Departments.
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