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Mr. Burnett: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that when valuers produce a valuation they inevitably write in it, using clear words, a disclaimer.
Mr. Luff: If anything, that probably makes it worse. I do not quite understand the point of the hon. Gentleman's intervention.
Mr. Burnett: If they are producing a valuation, they will put in a disclaimer to the effect that they are not producing a structural survey. I cannot see the point that the hon. Gentleman just made.
Mr. Luff: I am saying that if an individual buys a house with a valuation survey that identifies £300-worth
of energy-efficiency work that should be done, he may spend that amount only to discover later something much more fundamentally wrong that he cannot afford to correct. I would much rather that people were obliged to have full structural surveys when they make such a commitment.
Angela Eagle: The Bill impacts on various areas of the house-buying process. It may be helpful if I tell the House that the Government have launched a review of the house-buying process, in which, I suspect, some of the points that the hon. Gentleman is making about structural surveys, the method of buying houses, and the associated costs, will be looked at closely. The Government are anxious that the Bill should not make the house-buying process more inefficient or slow it up, because it is already too slow.
Mr. Luff: I am grateful to the Minister for her intervention, which was helpful and reinforced the concern that I was expressing.
Those who are selling their houses will not want a problem to be identified in the survey. Whenever I sold my houses, I used to go around to see what was wrong and put it right to ensure that I had a quick, clean sale. Sellers might say, "Hang about. Perhaps I ought to make the energy-efficiency improvements now to ensure that the valuation survey will come out completely clean and without any problems at all." That may be the single most beneficial impact of the Bill. That is one of the major reasons why I support it.
Mr. John Heppell (Nottingham, East):
I am pleased that there is consensus on the Bill. The hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) seems to have the support of professional organisations and of both sides of the House, mainly because of the one ingredient that needs to be there to ensure that the Bill survives--common sense. It is common sense that we do what the hon. Gentleman suggests in his Bill. We cannot create energy without some environmental impact. Although it is much better to use sustainable forms of energy creation, such as wind power, solar power and so on, even these have some impact on the environment. We can work at trying to improve the methods of creating energy, but in some respects what the Bill is trying to do is much more important: to reduce the amount of energy that we use. It would be difficult for any hon. Member, or anyone outside to fault energy efficiency.
I appeal to the hon. Gentleman not to be talked into, or pressurised into, extending the scope of his Bill. It is modest and practical, but that does mean that it
is negative. It has a certain purpose. It is easy for hon. Members to say that it does not do this or that about building regulations, and so on. Thankfully, my hon. Friend the Minister intervened to point out that that is not what the Bill is about.
The hon. Gentleman should allow the Bill to remain simple. I agree with the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) that the Bill could have complications. I get mixed up when we talk about the standard assessment procedure and energy ratings, that it is one to 100, but there are other energy ratings. We have to be careful--because the Bill's main purpose is to pass on information to the general public--that we do not fall into the same trap that people have fallen into in the past by speaking in jargon.
The Bill can survive. My experience of the House is that private Members' Bills are passed because they deal with a specific problem. The more a Bill is extended, the less likely it is to get on the statute book. I want the Bill to succeed. My advice to the hon. Gentleman is to keep the Bill as simple as he possibly can.
Domestic energy accounts for some 30 per cent. of the energy that is consumed. The Bill will affect only a small proportion of domestic energy. It will not, for example, deal with people in council housing or in private, rented accommodation. On energy efficiency, we need to concentrate not on one particular measure but on lots of different measures. That is why I am pleased that almost every time my hon. Friend the Minister has intervened today it has been to announce some new initiative--the interdepartmental fuel poverty committee, or a review of building regulations. This is not an issue which can be dealt with on its own if we are to meet the targets that we set ourselves and on which the Deputy Prime Minister decided at Kyoto.
Just in terms of trying to save energy, the Bill is commendable, but, from my own point of view, that is not its most important aspect. My hon. Friend hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Thomas) mentioned reduced maintenance and fuel costs. I represent a constituency which has one of the highest levels of poverty in the entire country, and one of the highest levels of unemployment--certainly the highest in the east midlands. If my memory serves me well, my constituency has more unemployed than any Welsh or Scottish constituency, so the idea of a development agency to try to get some of the benefits that Scotland and Wales have had particularly appeals to me.
I like the Bill because it can help tackle poverty. It may not be able to help those who are at the bottom level of poverty, but it will help those on limited incomes who are trying to purchase a house for the first time. It will make people's lives more comfortable and, at the same time, help to take them out of poverty.
I recognise that the Government are already taking action in that respect. Less well-off domestic consumers are assisted by the Government's home energy efficiency scheme, which provides some 400,000 grants a year. I accept what the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) said--that the previous Government did a lot of good work in terms of energy efficiency and conservation.
Mr. Bermingham
indicated dissent.
Mr. Heppell:
Hon. Friends shake their heads, but I think that it is best to acknowledge the fact that
Mr. Bermingham:
I come from an area that is as poor as, if not poorer than, that of my hon. Friend. Given the deprivation in the housing stock, an extra 40,000 grants a year is a drop in the ocean of need. I intend in due course to press the Minister to increase the amount available to help local authorities to provide the grants that are needed.
Mr. Heppell:
I partly agree with my hon. Friend. It is easy to say that an initiative is just a drop in the ocean. It would be easy to say that the Bill does not deal with everybody so it is just a drop in the ocean, but all those measures together combine to make a great deal of difference. If my hon. Friend's were one of the 40,000 households that benefited because of the change in VAT on energy-efficiency schemes, he would not think that the measure was just a drop in the ocean.
I am not a purist in terms of the environment and I do not advocate year zero. I recognise that other considerations, besides the environment, must be taken into account, including the economy and especially poverty in society. It could be argued that a reduction in VAT will increase the amount of energy used. While that may be marginally right, if the amount of energy used stops an elderly person dying from hypothermia, it is not wasted energy. I want energy to be used in that way.
Angela Eagle:
My hon. Friend is making an extremely good point. I hope that he has seen the consultation document launched by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister a few days ago, which makes precisely that point. To achieve sustainable development, a mix of economic, environmental and social issues must be at the core of public policy.
Mr. Heppell:
I thank my hon. Friend for her useful intervention. I have not seen the document yet, but I assure her that I shall read it with interest and study every detail because those issues concern my constituents.
I am pleased that the Government have gone beyond what the previous Government did. It shows that Labour provides value added. The reversal of the cut of £5.5 million to the Energy Saving Trust is particularly welcome. However, the majority of environmental and energy issues cannot be tackled by legislation. Some legislation is needed, but rhetoric at national level needs to be replaced by action locally. I am much more concerned by what happens locally because that is where policies are delivered. Conservative Members spend a great deal of time criticising and ridiculing local government because it is a fairly safe target, given that so few councils are Conservative controlled. Many councils, however, have gone far beyond their statutory responsibilities and have put much time and effort into ensuring that proper energy-efficiency schemes are in place and the worst-off are helped.
A scheme in my constituency is Nottingham Energy Awareness, which is recognised by all councillors and Members of Parliament who represent Nottingham. We
have all been to see projects that it has organised. I shall briefly skim through its aims and objectives, which are to enable fuel-poor households to save energy in their homes by using it more efficiently; to promote energy awareness through the provision of training for community leaders and those such as local authority staff who come into contact with the fuel-poor in their work; to encourage take-up of grant assistance for energy- efficiency improvements, particularly the Government's home energy-efficiency scheme; and to promote the integration of energy efficiency improvements, with maintenance and improvement programmes for the housing stock owned by Nottingham city council and other social housing projects.
The targets that the organisation has set are energy efficiency improvements; improved management of energy use within the home; reduced fuel bills, easing financial pressure on the household; reducing cold-related health problems; increased comfort in the home; and environmental improvements through cutting emissions of CO2 and other pollutants. The project's principal activities are the provision of advice on all aspects of energy efficiency through home visits or telephone calls; presentations to community organisations, attendance at exhibitions and working with local media; basic energy awareness training courses for community leaders and local authority staff; promotion of grants and assistance to help them; and energy surveys and audits in the home.
Those activities have been ongoing since 1995, so I admit that some were funded and helped by the previous Government, but it was mainly the local authority's input, and the voluntary sector that worked with the schemes, that kept them going.
I note what the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon said in his opening speech when he congratulated Lord Ezra on introducing a similar Bill in the 1996-97 Session. When I talked to Lord Ezra just yesterday he promised that he would watch our proceedings on the screen today to see the Bill's progress. He is certainly rooting for the Bill in the hope that it gets through.
Lord Ezra also discussed with me a project that he is helping to set up in Nottingham called the Nottingham Energy Partnership. It is a private-public partnership, which will bring together various organisations in Nottingham--the public, private and voluntary sectors, and residents--to improve energy efficiency. It was agreed by the council last November, but is expected to be launched publicly in the spring. Its aim is to analyse energy flows and usage profiles. A preliminary "energy balance" has already been undertaken and details will be given at the launch. Hon. Members may remember that Nottingham did some thermal photography of the whole city to try to establish where the worst places were for energy loss. The project aims to identify ways in which economies could be made in energy use. It also aims to pay particular regard to job creation opportunities, so it involves the economy, as well as the social side, because it also contributes to the anti-poverty initiative. Finally, it aims to bring enhanced environmental benefits as well.
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