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9.15 pm
I come to the idea that members of the Regional Committee could decide that, to increase democratic accountability, one of their number should serve on a quango. For example, someone who had previously worked as a GP in the health service might be thought suitable to be a member of a trust or health authority. Unfortunately, those non-executive directorships will be regarded--according to the rules that also currently apply to Members of this House--as offices of profit under the Crown, and such people will not be eligible to serve on the health authority or trust.
The issue is being reviewed in the context of the National Assembly for Wales. We are still considering disqualification and the posts for which elected Members of the assembly may be eligible. Given that, and because, under current legislation, Members of the Assembly will be disqualified from being members of health authorities and trusts anyway, I hope that the right hon. Member for Caernarfon will withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Wigley:
I shall respond briefly. I was intrigued by the way in which the mists of incomprehension surrounded the amendment when I spoke earlier. I hope that I do not always have that effect.
I am grateful to the Minister for his response. Obviously, I accept that anyone can make a nomination under the procedures, but the intention of the amendment was to go further. I noted that the Minister said that elected Members of the Assembly would not be able to serve on such bodies unless disqualification rules were changed. He said that the Government were considering that, and I hope that the change can be made, so that flexibility can be built into the procedures. In one way or another, quangos need to have greater local accountability.
The hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) was worried that Members of the Assembly would become involved in local government matters. That is the last thing that I want. There may be a way in which some of those bodies can be democratised through local government, but that is not proposed in the Bill. As I understand it, the regional quangos will remain after the assembly is up and running; the Bill contains nothing to democratise them.
Mr. Win Griffiths:
As the right hon. Gentleman will know, the health trusts are currently being re-examined and there are likely to be fewer when that process is
Mr. Wigley:
I accept that entirely on an all-Wales level. I hope that many quangos will be abolished and I hope that there will be much better scrutiny of those quangos that remain, as well as better accountability on an all-Wales level. I do not dispute that point.
However, my question relates to regional Wales. The trusts are being reviewed at the moment, but unless the Minister foresees an all-Wales acute trust and an all-Wales community trust--heaven forbid, that would be centralisation rather than decentralisation--there will be some regional bodies. There may be a different configuration, but regional bodies will continue to exist in Wales. As far as I know, the brief given to the health authorities undertaking the review does not include the question of how they may be made more democratically accountable.
We have a solution on the all-Wales level, and no doubt there will be a role for local authorities at the local level. However, on the regional level--which the Bill recognises the necessity of addressing by creating regional bodies in Wales comprising elected assembly members--the legislation is afraid to allow elected Members to be involved in creating a democratic mechanism for regional quangos.
Mr. Win Griffiths:
I said earlier that we were still examining issues relating to disqualification that currently prevent Members of the Assembly from playing any role whatsoever. We accept that there is a need to strengthen democratic accountability. That may be achieved by moving from the position whereby the Welsh Office, with the Secretary of State and two Ministers, has responsibility for all those matters, to the point where a democratically elected 60-Member assembly assumes that responsibility. That will enable the assembly to scrutinise those bodies more closely. I suggest also that Regional Committees will be able to examine what is happening in their regions and make recommendations and provide advice upon which the National Assembly may act appropriately.
Mr. Wigley:
We are now starting to tease out some of the responses that I had hoped for. In other words, the Minister is beginning to understand our assertion that elected assembly Members can play a legitimate role regionally in order to keep an eye on regional quangos.
The Minister said that the Government are still considering how the process will work and are willing to contemplate changing the disqualification rules to allow freedom of action. In that way, the assembly may be able to move down the road in a manner that it deems to be appropriate. I want to ensure that that course of action is not ruled out. We must consider the legitimate question of regional democracy in Wales. Members of the Assembly may be able to contribute to improving
answerability and scrutiny of regional quangos. That point has been made. I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Ancram:
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak during the stand part debate because clause 62 goes much wider than the amendments that we have discussed so far. Indeed, the clause is central to the success of the legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) moved an amendment regarding the number of regions, and I congratulate him on his maiden voyage from the Opposition Front Bench. I assure him that it is a compliment to be savaged by the Minister--the only person I know who can waffle while reading an official brief.
In all seriousness, we are unhappy with the clause as it stands and with Regional Committees as they are proposed. We made that clear in the aftermath of the referendum and implied it in our reasoned amendment. The problem must be addressed if we are not to create yet another democratic deficit that, in the long term, could undermine the success of the assembly.
The Minister said that the proposal for north Wales was to make the Committees full players. I am not sure what definition he gives to "players". The clause merely creates Advisory Committees, which are hardly players in other than the most remote sense. We are faced with a sop to the real concerns expressed by the people of Wales in the divided result of the referendum vote.
The Regional Committees will be unable to initiate anything. They will have no ability to oppose or veto anything and they will have no Executive authority. Under any definition of talking shops, those Regional Committees would be included. Only the directly elected Members in the region are guaranteed a place on them. The rest will be elected by the assembly, so the geographical or numerical majority in the assembly could effectively dictate who else gets on the Regional Committees. If there are no directly elected Members for any parties in Wales, it could be decided that those parties could have no representation on the Committees. That is the dangerous power that the clause will create.
There is no protection against permanent geographical discrimination. The clause is purely cosmetic. It creates a democratic deficit that, if not addressed, will cause problems. I regret that my amendment No. 300 was so technically deficient that it could not be selected for debate. That was entirely my fault. I shall try to adjust it so that it can be retabled on Report, when I hope that it may be selected. The amendment covers one of the areas that we have been discussing--our desire to see a representative of each of the Regional Committees on the Executive Committee as a full member who has been mandated by his or her regional peers to represent the interests of the regions in the centre of what will be the decision-making process.
I know that this will be somewhat uncomfortable for those who see the proposed Executive Committee as a cosy arrangement. However, in terms of giving a real voice to the regions of Wales, I think that we are making an important suggestion, and I hope that we can return to it. It would give a greater power to the Regional Committees than just the responsibility of providing advice.
On the day after the referendum, the Prime Minister said in Downing street that the Government would take on board the fears expressed in the vote. There is no doubt that that vote was regionalised. A Labour Member said earlier in our consideration of the Bill, rather significantly, that the effect of the vote had been to move Offa's dyke westward. Against that background, we looked for change in the clause as against the White Paper, to fulfil the Prime Minister's promise that some means would be produced of addressing the fears that had been expressed in the referendum vote. However, there is nothing new to be found in the clause. Indeed, there is nothing in the clause that can offer any comfort.
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