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Clause 62
Mr. Livsey: I beg to move amendment No. 12A, in page 30, leave out lines 36 and 37.
The First Deputy Chairman: With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 90, in page 30, line 36, leave out from 'establish' to end of line 2 on page 31 and insert--
'five regional committees for each of the five regions of Wales.
(2) The areas comprising each of the five regions shall be determined from time to time by the Parliamentary Boundary Commission for Wales.'.
No. 13A, in page 30, line 38, leave out 'also'.
No. 14A, in page 30, line 38, leave out 'other'.
No. 15A, in page 30, line 39, after 'Wales', insert
No. 17A, in page 30, line 41, leave out from 'constitute' to end of line 1 on page 31 and insert
Mr. Livsey:
These are some of the most important amendments for debate tonight. They refer to the regions of the assembly. No offence is meant to north Wales by our proposal in amendment No. 12A to leave out reference to it. Our aim, expressed in amendment No. 17A, is to have four regions of Wales--north, mid, west and south-east. We want to restructure the Regional Committees. That is necessary to ensure inclusivity throughout Wales. Every region of Wales must feel that it is included in the running of the assembly and that it has a part to play.
Mr. Alan W. Williams (East Carmarthen and Dinefwr):
The four areas that the hon. Gentleman has referred to have different populations. Would not the mid-Wales Committee be exceptionally small? It would have only Powys and Ceredigion and would be unbalanced.
Mr. Livsey:
As a Member for a mid-Wales constituency, I cannot accept that view. Powys alone runs for 132 miles--equivalent to the distance from the Severn bridge to Hammersmith flyover. On top of that there is
The population is not evenly spread throughout Wales. There has to be redress, because some areas are very rural--more rural than anywhere else in Great Britain below the highland line in Scotland. There are special needs of geography.
The Liberal Democrats want the four Regional Committees to have the right to provide the assembly with advice about their region and to take on powers delegated from the assembly. We want to remove all references to north Wales, not because we want to be unkind to north Wales but because we want to put all the regions in the Bill and have fair play for the other regions to establish an inclusive assembly.
The Bill establishes Committees for north Wales and the regions and states that they may provide advice, but it does not specify where they will be. It provides that Standing Orders will be used to determine the regions; we want to go further and specify them. Why is north Wales mentioned when none of the other regions are? We realise that it might have been felt that the people of north Wales were left out of the referendum process. We are sure that that was not the case, but there was a specific reference to reassure the people of north Wales that they would be included.
The proposals in the Bill could stigmatise the north and suggest that it is inferior to the south. Of course it is nothing of the sort, but the proposals are not good for the north and make other forgotten regions, such as mid-Wales, even more forgotten. We do not want that. That is why we want to omit the references to north Wales.
Amendment No. 90, tabled by the Conservatives, has some good points. It would remove references to north Wales and introduce five regions. We would support that, but the amendment would also remove the right of the regions to provide advice to the assembly about the area. We cannot support the amendment because of that provision.
To have real teeth, the Regional Committees should be able to have responsibilities delegated from the assembly. We want local accountability, subsidiarity and true devolution. We want to bring devolution home to the regions of Wales.
Our proposals are particularly relevant to the difference between rural issues and urban issues. How can a majority of south Wales urban Members take sensible decisions about rural affairs that affect mid-Wales and north Wales? Such debates need to be informed. Amendment No. 16A would help. It is important that Regional Committees should meet in the regions. Local matters should be considered as near as possible to the affected area.
The amendments deal with many issues. We feel strongly that the regions of Wales should be defined so that they can participate in the whole and make a worthwhile contribution to a successful Welsh assembly and the successful government of Wales. People should feel involved in the decision-making process.
Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire):
The clause goes back to the dark days of the summer, when the
I live on the border and have relations near Wrexham. My experience is that those real doubts still exist. There is real concern in the north that the assembly will be dominated by the south. [Interruption.] Would the Secretary of State like to intervene? No. In the markets of Oswestry and Wrexham, there is no demand for a switch of governmental powers from Westminster to the south of Wales. That is a fact and it is acknowledged by the Secretary of State, whose razor-sharp mind is now being applied to the drafting of the Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) has time and again proved how badly the Bill has been drafted. That may be because the Secretary of State has been distracted. He has had to put out a bush fire in his constituency party concerning the manner in which the referendum was conducted. He has also been scouring estate agents' windows in south Wales for a suitable site for the assembly.
It is the job of us in opposition, stuck in the trenches, to try to come up with a Bill that will work. The relic of the White Paper in clause 62 cannot be left as it is. It is woolly, vague and typical of the general muddle of the Bill. Amendment No. 90 clearly states that there should be five regions. These would be roughly equal in size of electorate to the European constituencies, which vary from 17.9 per cent. of the Welsh electorate to about 21.6 per cent.
I hope that that will satisfy the helpful intervention of the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Mr. Williams), who rightly criticised the Liberal Democrats' amendment--No. 17A--which proposes four uneven regions. The regions that we propose would also give some framework to the additional Members, who are bouncing around without any clear framework in which to work.
Mr. Llwyd:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Paterson:
I would be delighted to.
Mr. Llwyd:
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be delighted when I have finished my intervention.
Is the hon. Gentleman honestly suggesting that a Committee should cover an area the size of the Wales Mid and West European constituency--from Eglwysbach, which is three miles from Llandudno, to Llanelli on the south Wales coast? Is he seriously telling the Committee that that is an adequate boundary?
Mr. Paterson:
That is exactly the boundary that will be used for the election of regional list Members, which I understand the hon. Gentleman's party supports.
We should return to the ordinary Welsh voter who has a problem and wants it solved. The Secretary of State and I have discussed the matter in the Welsh Affairs Committee, but not to my satisfaction. Let us consider a project that could involve substantial inward investment--possibly from a European business--but could cause potential long-term environmental problems.
', listed in subsection (3) below,'.
'North Wales, Mid Wales, West Wales and South East Wales'.
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