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Mr. Andrew Reed (Loughborough): I know that the hon. Lady is aware of the road-pricing scheme in Leicester that was aimed at finding out how much it costs to price people out of their cars and on to public transport. The scheme provides a fast route from good car parking into the town centre. Is she aware that the experiment has revealed that motorists have to pay £6 to take their cars into the town centre before they consider using public transport? That is the dilemma that we face.
Mrs. Spelman: I was aware that a range of charges was being considered and I would be interested to know whether there are plans for other such schemes. If there are, I should like to make a plea on behalf of the retailers in the heart of the city of Birmingham who are concerned about the prospect of road pricing as they feel that it might deter retail customers.
Perhaps it would be useful to consider toll-free times and zones. There is no doubt that the heaviest congestion on the west midlands motorway network occurs around commuter times. Shoppers can arrange to travel to the city centre during off-peak times. I should be most concerned for the overall economy of the region if shoppers were deterred from supporting retailers in the city centre because they were penalised by the road-pricing system.
Where road-pricing systems operate on the continent, particularly in France, the local communities benefit from toll-free zones. The peage system on French motorways that pass close by major cities is often suspended at certain times. Local people have to put up with so much pollution, noise, nuisance and congestion that it would be hard for them to bear most of the burden of the cost.
I invite the Minister to tell us about some of the studies that the Government might be carrying out in relation to best practice elsewhere in Europe. The city of Zurich in Switzerland has managed to stabilise traffic growth, so it would be interesting to take a lesson from that major European city. I should also draw the Minister's attention to the success of the Umweltkarte in Freiberg in south Germany that has limited the access of heavy goods vehicles to city centres by introducing a scheme to encourage synchronised deliveries. Instead of several lorries travelling to the city centre each day, one lorry distributes to a variety of outlets. If that is too complicated, it is often possible to have a depot outside the city from which short-distance distribution facilities are arranged. That reduces the number of large heavy goods vehicles and their attendant pollution in city centres.
I should like to commend what the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) said about pollution. Although the subject is outside the remit of the Minister's Department, let me draw her attention to the health aspects relating to the composition of vehicle fuel.
We should re-examine the effects of pollution on health and the development of cleaner fuel. In that respect, British legislation has mirrored that in the United States. The removal of lead from petrol under the previous Conservative Government was a major success and represents an important contribution to the nation's health, but vehicle fuel still contains components that are detrimental to health. In the United States, progress has been made in the reformulation of gasoline--particularly the removal of benzene, which scientists tell us is just as carcinogenic as lead. Perhaps there is a case for taking another look at the health aspects of fuel composition as part of the general objective of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) advocated the use of bicycles. I recall from my days in that city that the greatest danger to health was being run over by one. She drew attention to the pollution in Parker street in Cambridge city centre. I recollect that that is also largely due to the variety of fuel used by the public transport fleet--notably buses--as diesel fuel has a high level of particulates. Perhaps as one of the more general objectives of the Bill and our efforts to improve the nation's health, we should look again at the composition of fuel.
Finally, to return my point about land use in relation to transport, let me make a strong plea for the on-going study on the allocation of additional homes to different parts of Britain. Last Friday, I visited a wire rope manufacturer, Webster and Horsall, at Hay Mills in Birmingham. When the company was looking for more staff, it advertised for recruits who could walk to work. The factory's shift pattern and the availability of public transport meant that people coming from Chelmsley Wood in my constituency had to take at least two buses, and spent at least an hour and a half getting to work. That led to reduced reliability and many staff resorted to bringing their cars to work.
Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre):
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in today's fundamentally important debate. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) not only on introducing the Bill but on his perseverance and persistence in the face of considerable odds in the past.
I am pleased that the Government are prepared to support the Bill, because that bodes well for the White Paper, which needs to be both radical and innovative and yet needs to attract a wide consensus of support. People should not confuse the Bill with the White Paper. The Bill clearly sets out a national framework for targets, but leaves a tremendous expanse to be filled in by suggestions and proposals in the White Paper, and by the work of local authorities and local people.
Nor should the Bill be regarded as anti-car or anti-road. It seeks to redress a crucial balance, but there is certainly no automatic implication that no more roads should ever be built or that we should move away from investment in the motor industry. Rather, we need to innovate and develop environmentally friendly and efficient vehicles and ways of using fuel.
When developing a framework, we must be clear that the needs of rural areas differ from those of urban areas. The Bill is about dealing with congestion problems and clearing road space for public transport, cycling and walking, and for innovative transport schemes such as low-energy vehicles that can service major shops and town centres. It is very much about safety and health, and about regenerating rundown areas, which is a fundamental part of the battle against poverty. As several hon. Members have said, one of the crucial factors about people living in poverty is that they suffer from the environmental impact of roads, from noise and pollution, which dramatically affects their quality of life and can affect longevity.
Rather than take a terribly cautious approach to the Bill, we should thoroughly embrace it. It is potentially extremely good, not only for the environment but for business. Town centres that adopted the radical traffic reduction measures that could result from the Bill could make themselves much more attractive places in which to work, to visit and in which to do business. Excellent opportunities could be provided for innovative industry and businesses to consider environmentally friendly ideas to create jobs and prosperity.
I am always pleased to talk about the city of Lancaster. I was delighted to hear the hon. Member for Ceredigion refer to one of my constituents, Dr. John Whitelegg, who is an eminent person in this field and with whom I have had many stimulating conversations. We do not always agree, but his views have influenced my thinking. Indeed, the other day the county surveyor exclaimed in surprise that I was beginning to sound like Dr. Whitelegg. I do not know whether that is a compliment to him or to me. Much of the work that Dr. Whitelegg has done over the years has been important and influential, and I hope that it will finally come to fruition in the White Paper.
Another reason why I want to discuss Lancaster is that it is an outstandingly attractive city, set in a beautiful area, and a thoroughly pleasant place to live. Unfortunately, it has a burgeoning traffic problem, which makes life extremely difficult. It has narrow streets that were never built for motor traffic, let alone the current quantity of traffic. Residential streets are used as rat runs by people trying to avoid congestion, but they pile up problems in their wake. Even when cars are not trying to move round the city, they are parked throughout it, which detracts from the grace and style of a beautiful historic town.
The residents of Lancaster also suffer from pollution problems, such as asthma, and all the difficulties that they bring. Moreover, as in every other city, the ultimate tragic contradiction is that some of the most dangerous places are outside schools. As it is dangerous for children to walk to school, parents take them in the car and the problem is compounded.
Lancaster is a place of ideas and innovation. It is a shame that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) is no longer here because, rather than horses and carts, as she suggested, I recently tried out an invention called a "brox", which is a three-seater bicycle contraption. It has the supreme advantage over ordinary bicycles in that it has proper seats rather than saddles, and a large boot so that people can do their shopping. It is light and well geared, so that it can be taken up all sorts of hills. Given that everyone looks at me when I go round in it, I might use it for the next election campaign. I shall certainly be inspired to use it, given the news about the
cycling allowance for Members. In some towns, the Post Office has started to use that sort of vehicle to make heavy deliveries to badly congested and polluted areas, and has been able to get over those problems.
Lancaster city council is progressive, and has introduced traffic calming measures, such as bus lanes. It has one of the best cycling strategies in the country and is working on green commuter plans and safer routes to schools. However, we need the impetus of a Bill such as this to set a national framework and national standards for traffic reduction. We need that push from the Government.
As my hon. Friend the Minister may be aware--our noble Friend Baroness Hayman, the Minister for Roads, is certainly aware of it--the Lancaster area needs some road development. Indeed, it is crucial in order to underpin a radical traffic reduction plan, which would involve the development of major transport interchanges that would bring together different modes of transport--trains, cars, hire cars, taxis, bicycles, light vehicles and lorries. Road pricing should be part of that radical traffic reduction plan. We should take a carrot-and-stick as well as a carrot approach.
There should be high-quality, regular, well-publicised public transport, with excellent information about when the next bus will come along and access for people with disabilities. I was amazed the other day when I was on a bus in Lancaster. Someone I know got on and said to me, "You shouldn't be on this bus. You're a Member of Parliament, you should be in a car." We should get away from the attitude that buses are for people who cannot afford cars. People should be seen on buses, and we should all get out this weekend and travel on buses, in order to make that point.
I look forward to the publication of the White Paper. I hope that there will be road pricing, with fiscal measures and hypothecation, to ensure that money from motorists goes directly into public transport schemes. People must see the benefit right at the point of delivery. There is scope for clamping down on company cars and providing differentials in road fund duty.
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