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Mr. Ron Davies: There is a simple and straightforward answer: the principle that underlies the whole of devolution is that the powers that currently rest with me will be transferred to the assembly. I have no responsibility for broadcasting, so it follows that we have no proposals to transfer broadcasting to the assembly.
Mr. Evans: That is the first acceptable answer in our three-day debate. However, there is a conflict between responsibility for the Welsh language, which is transferred in schedule 2, and responsibility for broadcasting. As has been noted, we have tabled an amendment to that provision.
We must have clarification of this issue; otherwise, enormous difficulties will arise between the assembly and Sianel Pedwar Cymru. My right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) asked who will pay for Sianel Pedwar Cymru if the assembly controls it, as the Liberal Democrats would like. Many people would find it odd if the assembly was responsible for it, but did not take responsibility for the financial controls. That television station was set up in 1980 by the Conservatives, and it has been expanding its remit with digital television, which will shortly be upon us.
Before I go any further, I want to pay tribute to Lord Roberts, who is a former Minister. He was second to none in his promotion of the Welsh language throughout Wales. He managed that without raising the hackles of people who do not speak Welsh. The matter could have been divisive if it had been handled wrongly. We should not underestimate his gift for promoting the Welsh language, because, if handled improperly, it could be a problem. I pay tribute to his deft handling of the issue. We need his sensitivity for this legislation, because there could be conflict.
Mr. Rhodri Morgan:
The hon. Gentleman has paid a well-deserved tribute to Lord Roberts. He asks us to support his amendment, which would prevent functions relating to the Welsh language from being transferred to the Welsh assembly. Does Lord Roberts agree with that proposal?
Mr. Evans:
I spoke to Lord Roberts about five hours ago, and he was delighted when I told him that I intended to pay him that tribute. Yes, he agrees with the amendment. The Welsh language was afforded protection under the current arrangements without the help of a Welsh assembly. Lord Roberts supports the amendment
We are told that the assembly will be a cure for everyone's evils. I suspect that, in a short time, just as every household will be able to get all the television pictures it wants from wherever it wants, we will all be speaking Welsh.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy):
If the hon. Gentleman spoke to Lord Roberts five hours ago, that was during the debate, and I did not see him leave.
Mr. Evans:
That was because the hon. Gentleman did not see me come into the Chamber. When he arrived, I was making some notes on the speeches that I shall make later. I am delighted that my every movement is being tagged by the nationalists. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I had that conversation.
It will be interesting to see whether the Welsh assembly will deliver what has been claimed for it. I urge the Government's supporters, the nationalists and the Liberal Democrats to be cautious and not to build up the assembly's reputation too much, or expectations will be so high that people will feel let down if it does not deliver on the central, key propositions.
The assembly could allow Sianel Pedwar Cymru or another station to broadcast its proceedings. That would no doubt fill the people of Wales with great anticipation. It would probably be more depressing than "EastEnders" and less transfixing than the test card. I suspect that the Government will not allow that function to be transferred, but we need clarification, particularly on Sianel Pedwar Cymru, because it wants to know about its future.
Mr. Ron Davies:
The hon. Gentleman does not have to suspect: it is clear that the Bill contains no provision for such a transfer.
Mr. Evans:
I am delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has clarified that. I suspect that the people who work at Sianel Pedwar Cymru also want to know that.
A conflict may arise because of the Welsh language content in Sianel Pedwar Cymru programmes. Does the Secretary of State envisage any conflict between Sianel Pedwar Cymru and the assembly, given that responsibility for the Welsh language is being transferred? How would such conflicts be resolved?
Mr. Ron Davies:
I do not envisage any conflicts, so there would be no need to resolve them.
Mr. Evans:
There are all sorts of things that the Secretary of State may think may not happen, but hon. Members should consider what will happen once an assembly has been set up with 60 members, including nationalists who may be operating on their own agenda. The Secretary of State and his hon. Friend the Minister must forgive me if we envisage a worst-case scenario in certain respects. It is all very well to sit here looking through rose-tinted spectacles and believing that everything will be all right when the assembly has been
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain):
Looking across at the hon. Gentleman, we are viewing the worst-case scenario.
Mr. Evans:
I am delighted to hear from the Minister, but, if that is his only contribution, I should have preferred him to continue to sit where he is sitting and to say absolutely nothing, as he has for most of the debate.
I fear that there may be conflicts in the future, and I should like them to be sorted out.
Mr. Nick Ainger (West Carmarthen and South Pembrokeshire):
What are the problems?
Mr. Evans:
I have already described the problems that may affect Sianel Pedwar Cymru, with its Welsh language remit. A large proportion of what is broadcast is in Welsh, and, indeed, 61 per cent. of Welsh speakers spend half their time watching the channel. The Welsh assembly will see that it has an important role to play, and I hope that the Secretary of State will take that into account.
Amendments Nos. 221 and 83 are intended to tidy up clause 33, which gives the assembly carte blanche to support museums, art galleries, libraries, the Welsh language, the arts, crafts, sport, and so forth. We want the promotion of those places and activities to be clarified, and to be made reasonable.
Will the Secretary of State tell us what limitations there may be on the assembly in regard to future expenditure, and the actions that the assembly may take? If, for instance, the assembly decided to set up and sponsor its own lottery, operating only in Wales, to support some of the places and activities that I have mentioned, would it be able to establish such a competing lottery? If not, what would it be able to do for that purpose?
The financial aspects are important. We are told that the assembly will have no tax-varying powers--
Mr. Ron Davies:
I can help the hon. Gentleman. The assembly will have no legislative powers, and will therefore not be able to legislate to create a statutory lottery like the one we now have.
Mr. Evans:
As the Secretary of State will know, a lottery called Pronto has already been set up to support something. I want to know whether the assembly, with no legislative powers, would be able to back a lottery that would compete with the national lottery.
Will there be any limitations in the support of those activities? Local authorities in Wales will want to know. The assembly will be given money to hand to authorities; if it starts to take some of that money to itself, and to spend it to support such activities, authorities will have to make up the amount themselves somehow.
The Secretary of State has told us that the assembly will have no tax-varying powers, but local authorities may have to make up the shortfall by raising the council taxes paid by people living in Wales. Until the Secretary of
State can give us the answers, the people of Wales will fear that tax increases will be brought in through the back door.
Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy):
I oppose amendment No. 212 which proposes to leave out on page 73, "The Welsh language". To seek to remove that is a gross insult to the people of Wales, Welsh speaking or non-Welsh speaking, and to the intelligence of hon. Members. When I saw the proposal to remove the Welsh language from the functions of the Welsh assembly, I could not believe my eyes. Perhaps I am naive in thinking that the Conservative party has at last realised that the Welsh language exists, but if Opposition Members have come to that view, I applaud them.
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