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Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield): Is the Minister aware that the bombing raids during the Gulf war equalled in force seven Hiroshimas, yet failed to bring down Iraq? Is he aware that the United Nations has confirmed that 1 million children in Iraq are starving and that 500,000 have died? Is he aware that 54 Catholic bishops in the United States have appealed to President Clinton to end the sanctions? Did he note, over the weekend, that the anthrax in Iraq was supplied by the United States and that the leader of the biological research department in Baghdad had attended a seminar on anthrax in 1988?
Is the Minister aware that, despite the fact that the United Nations Security Council has demanded compliance by Iraq, there is absolutely no United Nations authority for military action by the United States or Britain; nor is there in the Arab world? Is it not time that Britain stood up to the United States and spoke for Europe during the period of the British presidency, instead of going along with a war that might be convenient for the present American Administration for quite different reasons?
Mr. Lloyd:
No. It is most certainly time that this Government stood up for the people of Iraq who are not represented by Saddam Hussein and who have experienced being attacked by Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons. It is about time that this Government continued to stand up for the rights of the people in the region who are threatened by Saddam Hussein and for the rights of the world, which has every reason to take tough and consistent action against a dictator who wants to create weapons of mass destruction, both biological and chemical, and thereby jeopardise the peace not only of Iraq's people but of people throughout the world.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife):
Does the Minister remember that, after the invasion of Kuwait but before the outbreak of the Gulf war, we had six months of serious dialogue with Saddam Hussein during which he proved himself to be as intransigent and obstructive as he has since? Will the Minister confirm that there are no sanctions against imports into Iraq of either food or medicine, and that the Iraqi Government are entitled and able to import as much food and medicine as they choose? In that unpredictable set of circumstances, is not the one thing that we can be clear about that, if the military option
Mr. Lloyd:
The hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right that, as part of the peace settlement, Saddam Hussein undertook to destroy precisely those weapons of mass destruction. It has been his failure to complete that undertaking which has led us to the current situation. The hon. and learned Gentleman is equally right to say that both food and medicine are outside any Security Council restriction. It is therefore up to Saddam Hussein not to play with the system, as he has done in the past, but to use that opportunity to feed and to care for the needs of his own population. The fact that he chooses not to do so will be judged not only by the House but by the world as a measure of the man and as a measure of his brutality against his own people. Such considerations count significantly in this type of exchange.
The position of the British Government, who were sponsors of the original oil-for-food deal, is that, of course, we will examine carefully any suggestion of relaxation, specifically in ensuring that food and medicine are available for the suffering people of Iraq. In turn, we call on Saddam Hussein to show the same consideration for his own people.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton):
Is my hon. Friend aware that if the voices of appeasement of Saddam Hussein--which are still to be heard--had prevailed seven years ago, Saddam Hussein would still be in occupation of Kuwait and probably also of wide tracts of the middle east? Does he agree that, seven years or more after Saddam was driven from Kuwait, it is utterly intolerable that there should still be any question of his having the ability to manufacture weapons of mass destruction? Is it not obvious to all but the purblind that that man is the greatest menace to world peace and world equilibrium since Adolf Hitler?
Is my hon. Friend aware that the House will certainly support the Government's and the United Nations' efforts to achieve a peaceful diplomatic solution, but that if the necessity arises to take military action, the Government will have the overwhelming support not only of the House but of Labour Members?
Mr. Lloyd:
I strongly welcome my right hon. Friend's remarks. He is right to say that Saddam Hussein would have shown no voluntary willingness to move himself from Kuwait had it not been for the actions of the United Nations. Equally, since then, Saddam has been prevented from committing the type of excesses to which he was attracted before the UN action only because of the regime that has been maintained. Saddam's ability to manufacture weapons of mass destruction threatens both the region and the world, and the world expects the United Nations to act decisively to put a stop to it.
Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood):
For the sake of the peace of the region, and because of the dire precedent that it would set for the international world order were the United Kingdom and the United States of America to back down in the face of the flagrant challenge to the United Nations posed by Saddam Hussein, the hon. Gentleman and his policy deserve support.
However, although the United Kingdom has the presidency of the European Union, where is the much- vaunted common foreign and security policy? Is it not more true that, as ever, we stand shoulder to shoulder with our American allies in defence of peace and liberty than that our European friends are rallying to the cause of those virtues?
Mr. Lloyd:
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's earlier remarks in which he gave his support for the Government's position and for the UN. That is very welcome. I repeat that the UN will search for every possible diplomatic solution, but there can be no question of backing down. That is the position of the UN which, I must say to him, involves the whole world. Our opposition to Saddam Hussein must continue on that basis.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley):
Is it not the case--as my hon. Friend the Minister has suggested--that we are not dealing with a rational human being; that Saddam Hussein is not a man with whom one can negotiate; and that, 10 years ago this March, he practised genocide against his own people when 5,000 died at Halabja? Anyone who wants to see bodies, or people injured by Saddam Hussein rather than by the Americans and the allies, should look at the survivors and the graves at Halabja.
Is it not the case that not only has the resolution allowing UNSCOM access to sites in Iraq been flouted, but Saddam Hussein is still practising ethnic cleansing against his own people? In the past few months, thousands of refugees have been forced into northern Iraq because Saddam Hussein has thrown them out of their own homes. Recently--through a prison cleansing system--he has executed hundreds upon hundreds of prisoners, including Kuwaiti prisoners, in Iraqi gaols. My hon. Friend the Minister would have my full support for any action he took to get rid of this terrible war criminal who ought to be hounded out of existence.
Mr. Lloyd:
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks. She knows as well as most about the intolerable burden faced by Iraqi people of all backgrounds who have suffered under Saddam Hussein, and she referred to the destruction of Halabja. Since then--and certainly since the end of the Gulf war--Saddam Hussein has continued to persecute significant parts of Iraq's population indiscriminately and brutally. The recent report from the UN representative, Mr. van der Stoel, indicated that the humanitarian situation at the moment was horrendous. None of that can take away from the responsibility of Saddam Hussein and the indifferent, callous and brutal way in which he chooses to treat his own people.
Mr. Tim Collins (Westmorland and Lonsdale):
Given what the Minister has said, does he accept that there will be a widespread welcome for his proposition that the option of military force cannot be ruled out because it is imperative that Saddam Hussein should be denied access to weapons of mass destruction? Accordingly, may I ask him to reflect further on his reply to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), the shadow Foreign Secretary, on the importance of the British aircraft carrier fleet? Once this
Mr. Lloyd:
The fact that the aircraft carriers have been deployed demonstrates their value in these circumstances. The hon. Gentleman will have noticed that my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces is sitting beside me. He will have registered the hon. Gentleman's remarks and will reflect on them in days to come.
Mr. Bernie Grant (Tottenham):
I find it amazing that hon. Members can, quite rightly, condemn Saddam Hussein for his atrocities but say nothing about Israel and its atrocities against the Palestinians and others. Will my hon. Friend the Minister answer a straight question with a straight answer? Who supports Britain and the United States in the Security Council? Does France, China or any other member support Britain and the US? Or is this yet another occasion on which Britain trails behind the coat tails of the United States of America and does not have the courage to stand on its own two feet?
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