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6.15 pm
Mr. Livsey: I congratulate members of the Committee on an interesting debate. We have just heard a defence of the status quo, which is nothing more than I would expect from the Government. The amendments were tabled to create a more proportional Welsh assembly, so that the regions of Wales would feel more included in the process, and so that the assembly's committee system would be better served, with 10 more Members.
The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) understandably wants a constructive and stable relationship between the assembly and the Westminster Parliament. He asked how that would work. We certainly believe that there is a clear delineation between domestic policy, which will be exercised by the assembly and, at the moment, is exercised by the Secretary of State and his Ministers in the Welsh Office, and macro-economic functions in the Westminster Parliament concerning such matters as defence. The hon. Gentleman referred to a dual democratic bidding. We obviously have doubts about that as well, which is why we proposed the single transferable vote system yesterday. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) mentioned the least proportional system that the Government could get away with, which let the cat out of the bag.
The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) discussed under amendments Nos. 188 and 187 the need for demographic, social and cultural factors to be considered more. We certainly support that, especially in relation to electoral boundaries. Incidentally, I welcome his statement that he wants Meirionnydd to remain the powerhouse. That is an important statement, which I hope the Secretary of State and the Minister will take into account.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) rightly said that proportional representation would help to bring women and black people into the assembly--
Mr. Livsey:
I am trying to sum up.
The hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) talked about party lists and hacks. We addressed that question yesterday when we proposed an STV system.
The hon. Member for Rhondda said that Wales is taking a dramatic step forward, and I agree. All we are asking in the amendments is for democracy to be allowed to go a little further.
The hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) said that there would be too many people and that they would be falling over each other, but Great Britain has the lowest number of elected persons in western Europe.
The hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) toed the party line in saying that the 40:20 split was probably correct, and minimalist in terms of Members--the smallest assembly that could possibly be envisaged. Judging by that statement, I presume that he would prefer that system to go forward.
Other points were made by other hon. Members, but time is running out. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) said that the proposal would mean 10 more politicians, and also that the Conservatives would win seats in the assembly. I am pleased that the Conservative party is on board for the assembly.
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Thomas) said that to introduce an electoral system involving proportional representation was epoch-making. It was rightly pointed out to him that Northern Ireland adopted such a system long ago.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West magnanimously stated that he might be prepared to accept a situation in which opposing Labour would be allowed. He also said that the Labour party was stronger in Wales than in Scotland--yet the system in Wales is less proportional than that proposed for Scotland. I leave him with that question to ponder.
The amendments are about representation, democracy and fairness, but the questions that they raise have been aired and I do not wish to press them.
Amendment negatived.
Mr. Llwyd:
I beg to move amendment No. 186, in page 71, line 31, leave out 'local government', and insert 'parliamentary'.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 189, in page 73, line 7, leave out 'local government' and insert 'parliamentary'.
No. 31A, in clause 10, page 6, line 21, leave out from 'who' to end of line 26, and insert
No. 74, in clause 10, page 6, line 21, leave out from 'who' to end of line 26 and insert
No. 179, in clause 10, page 6, line 22, leave out 'local government' and insert 'parliamentary'.
No. 180, in clause 10, page 6, line 25, leave out 'local government' and insert 'parliamentary'.
No. 181, in clause 10, page 6, line 26, after 'constituency', insert
No. 175, in clause 10, page 6, line 26, at end insert
No. 182, in clause 10, page 6, line 26, at end insert
The Chairman:
Mr. Cynog Dafis.
Mr. Llwyd:
Elfyn Llwyd, Sir Alan. I feel especially hurt because I ensured that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) called you "Sir Alan", rather than "Mr. Alan". I shall probably never intervene again.
Now I shall try to be serious; I am afraid that the whole debate has been too exciting for me. I shall deal with the amendments as quickly as I can. Amendment No. 186, standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member
for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), and in those of my other hon. Friends and myself, is designed to insert the word "parliamentary" instead of the words "local government".
The purpose of the amendment is simple. It would mean that elections to the national assembly were based on the parliamentary list of electors instead of the local government list. There are several reasons for that. First, clearly the assembly will not be a creature of local government. I hasten to add that I have no antipathy to local government. I welcome clause 110, which gives the national assembly a duty to promote the interests and needs of local government; that is sensible.
There is also the important question of avoiding duplication of work. It would be simple to use the parliamentary electors list in connection with the national assembly.
Status is another question which arises. Personally, I have never been unduly conscious of status; I believe that it is often bogus, a question more of self-delusion than of anything else. However, I suppose that it will add a certain status to the new national assembly if the parliamentary list is used. The amendment should not cause the Government great difficulty, and I would welcome Ministers' views in due course.
Amendment No. 181, which refers to the principal private residence of the elector, can be coupled with amendment No. 175. Those two amendments have slightly more content. During the referendum campaign, there was much evidence to support the view that people with second or holiday homes in Wales travelled back specifically to vote no on 18 September.
That was an attempted denial of democracy, when we consider the fact that up to 20 or 25 per cent. of the housing stock in many areas of Wales is devoted to second or holiday homes. The idea is unacceptable, whoever those people are and wherever they come from. It almost brought about a denial of the democratic voice of the people of Wales on 18 September, so I hope that proper consideration can be given to our suggestion.
I shall truncate what I intended to say. I meant to say considerably more, but I shall not dwell on it all now. The other amendment, which is also important, would enable expatriate Welsh people to vote in the election. There is no reason why they should not. It happens in parliamentary elections, and I see no reason why they should not be allowed to vote in the forthcoming elections to the national assembly.
Many Welsh Members of Parliament spend time courting Welsh expatriates and trying to persuade them to come back and invest in Wales and to set up in business there. If the amendment were accepted, we could at least say to them that they would be given the basic civil right of a vote for the main national assembly of their home country.
With those few words, I commend our amendments to the Committee.
Mr. Jenkin:
The amendments, tabled by the Welsh nationalists and ourselves, go to the heart of the confusion in the Bill. They ask whether the assembly is really a form of parliament or simply a branch of local government.
If we extrapolate from the Government's proposal to use the local government franchise, the assembly seems to be just a branch of local government. We question
whether that is appropriate, especially in view of the unhappiness that we expressed about the franchise for the referendum, because Welsh people living outside Wales had no vote.
We have some sympathy with the nationalists' amendment, which would give people living outside Wales some say in the elections to their national assembly. Many people, although they may live outside Wales, remain Welsh nationals and to that extent their rights should be respected.
Perversely, by choosing the local government franchise, the Government have introduced the other quirk--the fact that people who happen to be living in Wales temporarily will be included in the franchise. That will extend to non-United Kingdom European Community nationals who may be in Wales for a limited period. They will be treated as equal citizens for the assembly elections, and we question whether that is appropriate.
I ask the Minister a simple question to which I should like a straight answer. Does he agree that we are obliged to have the provision under article 8b of the Maastricht treaty, which refers to the right of a European Union citizen
'are entitled to vote as electors in a parliamentary election'.
'are entitled to vote as electors in a parliamentary election or who would be so entitled if they were not peers'.
'which is the principal private residence of the elector.'.
'save that the Secretary of State may by order provide for the registration as electors of persons who (a) have been permanently resident in Wales at any time in the 20 years preceding the election in question, (b) are not entitled to vote in Wales at a parliamentary election, and (c) are entitled to vote elsewhere at a parliamentary election.'.
'and
(c) are not registered at that address solely by virtue of being occupants of a second home.'.
"to vote and to stand as a candidate"
in what are described as "municipal elections"? Would the national assembly elections be included in the definition of municipal elections under that article?
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