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3.41 pm
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): I am sure that the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer), who spoke very well if I might say so, is well intentioned, but we are not talking about wholesale slaughter of family pets or massive injuries to the police. We might all agree that he has overstated his case. We see here the manifestation of the new Labour party's tendency to ban or restrict everything that it does not like.
The hon. Gentleman referred to those who supported his Bill, but he did not say whether anyone else wanted the restriction. Certainly, the police do not want it. The police tend to be anti-gun, but the Association of Chief Police Officers in its evidence to the Select Committee on Home Affairs in 1996 said that further controls on possession of air weapons were not required.
It is certainly not my constituents who want the measure, if my postbag is to be believed. I am pretty sure that in the past six years I have never received a letter from a constituent or a lobbying letter asking for a restriction on air weapons. I accept that a few of the hon. Gentleman's constituents may have written to him.
Let us quickly examine the facts. The hon. Gentleman brought many statistics into the argument, and the facts are more interesting. The current legislation is firm and
stringent. If any person, young or old, shoots a protected bird with an airgun or any other weapon, he may be fined up to £5,000. That is a fairly serious amount of money. Anyone aged between 14 and 17 who has an airgun in his possession and is not properly supervised may be fined up to £1,000. The hon. Gentleman spoke about stopping children walking our streets with air weapons. If a child between the ages of 14 and 17 walks about with an air weapon that is not properly encased, he can be fined £1,000. Children are not allowed to have airguns on the street. It is a question of enforcement of the law, not a change in the law.
There are perhaps 4 million air weapons in the country at the moment. They are not powerful enough to qualify as a firearm. Such weapons are kept at home. How will this marvellous legislation stop people getting hold of air weapons? They probably have air weapons illegally now. A more important statistic is that, in this country, between 1 million and 4 million illegally held firearms are used in crime. That is conjecture of course, but I understand that, in 1996, the Home Office published figures that alleged that about 1.7 million illegally held firearms are used.
In October, the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Hinchliffe) suggested that he wanted all airguns to be banned, and he suggested it again to the Minister of State, Home Office, the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), at oral questions. Many Labour Members support the hon. Member for Wakefield, but the hon. Member for Broxtowe said that he particularly did not want that.
I view this as new Labour at work. It is restricting or banning anything that it does not want, saying, "As Labour does not want to do it, you shall not be allowed to do it." That is the political correctness of 1998. It is the nanny state run amok.
The Bill would stop children using airguns, yet, at the same time, because of political correctness, Labour wants to reduce the age of homosexual consent, which is a much more important matter. Many young people enjoy using air weapons for target shooting. I did it as a boy and I was supervised. The hon. Member for Broxtowe will know that, in 1996, British disabled shooters won gold and silver medals in the Atlanta paralympics in air target shooting events and set new world records.
I shall not force the Bill to a Division because I know that the House would rather move on to other matters, but I want the public to know that not every hon. Member supports the Bill. Indeed, should it be taken any further, it will be opposed. Let those who pursue their harmless and legally recognised activities and hobbies--young, old, disabled and able-bodied--carry on so doing.
Mr. Alan Clark (Kensington and Chelsea):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would have appreciated the opportunity to set some of the balance right from the Conservative Benches and to have supported the Bill--indeed, I am one its sponsors. I asked your secretary, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether that was legitimate--I had the permission of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) to speak on the Bill. I was told that under no circumstances was it possible for another hon. Member to speak on a ten-minute Bill and that there is no provision in the Standing Orders to do so. Now I find that my
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. I cannot allow the right hon. Gentleman to go on too long. The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) put his case because I called him to speak. It is as simple as that. I do not know what conversation took place between the right hon. Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Clark) and an official of the House.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. One of the reasons why the right hon. Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Clark) was able to rise on a point of order is simply that, many years ago, the practice in the House used to be that any hon. Member who opposed a ten-minute Bill, so as not to waste Parliament's time, was expected to follow his voice with his vote. The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) supposedly opposed the Bill, but said in his concluding remarks that he would not vote against it.
That is why the right hon. Member for Kensington and Chelsea has a case. He said that he would have liked to have his two penn'orth on the Bill and that he had been told by the Clerk's Department that he could not, yet another Tory Member has supposedly opposed the Bill, but then not really opposed it.
That is why we should get back to the old system. When it was in place, anyone who opposed a ten-minute Bill had to call out at the end that he opposed it. An anomaly has been created.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
The hon. Gentleman is an expert on the procedures of the House, and he also knows how to change the procedures. I am bound by the rules of the House as they are at present, so allow me to put the Question.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business), and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Nick Palmer, Mr. Alan Clark, Liz Blackman, Mr. Vernon Coaker, Mrs. Fiona Jones, Mr. Roger Gale, Mr. Barry Gardiner, Mr. Michael Jabez Foster, Mr. Mark Todd, Mr. Chris Mullin and Mr. Ivor Caplin.
Dr. Nick Palmer accordingly presented a Bill to amend the Firearms Act 1968 to restrict the acquisition and possession of air weapons; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 6 February, and to be printed [Bill 112].
Considered in Committee [Progress, 20 January].
Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnorshire):
I beg to move amendment No. 19A, in page 70, line 11, leave out 'four' and insert 'six'.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 188, in page 72, line 12, leave out '(where appropriate)'.
No. 187, in line 13, after 'geographic', insert 'demographic, social or cultural'.
No. 71, in line 16, leave out 'one half' and insert 'three quarters'.
No. 72, in line 17, leave out from 'by' to end of line 18 and insert
Mr. Livsey:
It is my privilege to speak to the amendments. The Liberal Democrats have tabled amendment Nos. 19A, 71 and 72. Amendment No. 19A, which is also supported by members of Plaid Cymru, increases the number of seats in each electoral region from four to six. That increases the number of Members sitting in the Welsh assembly from 60 to 70. Amendment No. 71 adjusts the figures in the schedule so that the number of electoral region Members is three quarters of the number of constituency Members, and that, in effect, increases from 60 to 70 the number of Members in the assembly. Amendment No. 72 provides for an increase in the number of constituencies to a number that is not exactly divisible by four, so the highest number of constituencies that is divisible by four is used in this case.
The amendments are obviously linked to the additional member system proposed by the Government--they propose to use a version of the additional member system. AMS is a hybrid based on two elements; here I acknowledge the Electoral Reform Society brief. Each constituency would elect one representative by the first-past-the-post system. In Wales, there will be 40 single-Member constituencies, matching the 40 Welsh Westminster constituencies. Additional Members will be elected from a closed party list and used to correct the disproportionate effects of the first-past-the-post element. There will be 20 additional Members, four from each of the five old European constituencies that make up the new electoral regions. In the European elections of 1999, Wales will be a single Euro-constituency.
In the traditional model, as used in Germany and New Zealand, about the same number of Members are elected from the list as from the constituency element. Unlike most additional member systems, the Welsh assembly system will not have a national tabulation, but will aim to be proportional in the electoral regions. Integral to that system is the fact that each voter will have two votes, one for the constituency Member, and the other for the closed party list. One of the main arguments used against that form of AMS is the closed nature of the party list, but that is the subject of a later amendment.
The amendments have the effect of increasing the number of top-up Members from 20 to 30, and the total number of assembly Members from 60 to 70. When working up its policy on a Welsh assembly, the Labour party originally proposed 80 seats for the assembly, but eventually had to reduce that to 60--we suspect to appease old Labour Members who do not support PR.
'four) either three quarters of the highest number which is less than that total number and exactly divisible by four or the number produced by adding one to three quarters of that highest number'.
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