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Dr. Julian Lewis: I was debating whether to intervene. I am following the logic of the Minister's argument, which seems to be that the idea of devolving powers downwards from Westminster is to give more democracy to the people, yet the Government are on the verge of declaring for economic and monetary union, which would give massive powers up to Brussels, away from the people. Which do the Government want: to take power down to the people from Westminster or to take power up away from Westminster? The only consistency in their position is that they want to destroy the powers of the Westminster Parliament.
Mr. Howarth: The hon. Gentleman should follow our debates more closely. I do not intend to go through the whole debate on Scotland or Europe but I shall make two points. It is sensible, particularly where the demand exists--in Scotland and Wales, by different majorities, the people have voted for it--to devolve some powers to a directly elected body. He has accepted the result, though he may not be happy with it. On whether we go into the first wave of a single currency, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made the position clear. It will depend on whether at the time we consider it to be in the best interests of the British economy and British businesses. We are combining our concern about our national interest with the potential to pool if conditions are right. That is a proper way to deal with the situation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) raised seven detailed questions that he felt it would be proper for me, as a Home Office spokesman, to answer. I want to reply with two general principles and, if he is happy with this, write to him on the detailed points--not because I cannot answer them but because of the lack of time. If I took all the time available, I could not answer his seven questions.
Mr. Jenkin:
Can I have a copy?
Mr. Howarth:
The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to receive a copy.
The two general principles specifically concern the Home Office. First, on there being no Home Office Minister here when the Scotland Bill was debated, no discourtesy to the House was intended, nor did we feel that we were being excluded from the deliberations. The Home Office, the relevant departments in the Home Office, the Home Secretary and Ministers were consulted in detail on the arrangements for the referendum and on the arrangements for the Bill, so our view has been fed into the considerations of the Secretary of State for Scotland. He has taken our concerns and worked with them and we have
arrived at a conclusion with which we are both happy. There is no divergence of view between the Home Office and the Scottish Office and the respective Ministers in both Departments. Where technical concerns have been expressed, mostly--in fact, entirely--they have been reconciled in the final draft of the Bill.
Mr. Howarth:
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, but then I must make some progress.
Mr. Forth:
The Minister has been very generous. He has identified who speaks for Scotland in this case and more generally, and who speaks for Wales, which I think we already know. Who speaks for England and the people of England in the Government?
Mr. Howarth:
The question, in the way that the right hon. Gentleman poses it, does not arise. The Government as a whole speak for England.
Mr. Howarth:
Well, let me explain what I mean. Is it not true, for example, that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Employment and Ministers in that Department are responsible for those two issues as they affect the people of my constituency, the right hon. Gentleman's constituency and all English constituencies? That is the case. The Prime Minister speaks for the whole of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Ministers who are responsible for Departments that provide services in England that are provided by the Scottish Office in Scotland and the Welsh Office in Wales speak for England on those subjects. The right hon. Gentleman's question is not as difficult as he thought. The answer is fairly obvious and I hope that I have given him some satisfaction.
The hon. Member for Billericay, who is now back in the Chamber, said that we received only 100 to 120 responses to the consultation document on a Greater London authority. She may have intended to say 1,000. I want to correct that point. In fact, we have received 1,280 responses, which includes 705 from individuals and 576 from organisations representing tens of thousands of Londoners. It is possible that many more people are represented by those responses than the actual number received. I am sure that when the consultation period is over the results will be published and will make interesting reading.
I move on to the Government's programme. The response to the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Billericay is precisely the Government's constitutional programme. As has been discussed at great length, we have introduced proposals which will move towards the establishment of a Scottish Parliament. I emphasise again that we are talking about devolution--some important powers in respect of the Scottish people will be passed along to the Scottish Parliament, which will make decisions. The important thing about that is that the decision to do so was taken in a referendum of the Scottish people, which is what we promised.
One of the issues raised by several expatriate Scots who now represent English constituencies is the position of Scots who are not living in Scotland. It is a strange constitutional idea that someone who does not live in an area but happens to have been born there should be consulted about proposals for it.
Mr. Jenkin:
What about overseas voters?
Mr. Howarth:
That is a case in point. It is a separate issue. As a result of action taken by the previous Government, whom the hon. Gentleman supported, people who live abroad are added on to an electoral register in constituencies in which they have an influence. The justification for adding them to the register is that they might be temporarily resident abroad and qualified to vote in this country in the election of a Government of the United Kingdom as a whole. The difference with these proposals is that they affect Scotland or they affect Wales, so it is logical that people who are currently resident in Scotland or in Wales should have been consulted about them.
Our second important constitutional proposal is to give devolution to the people of Wales in the form of a Welsh Assembly. Having lived in Wales for three years and worked in a Wales-wide organisation while I was there, I have slightly more knowledge of Wales than of Scotland. Whatever we say about Wales, we must accept two important factors about it. The first is that there is a distinctly Welsh nationality, although it may vary from north to south. The accents vary and some aspects even of the Welsh language differ between the north and south, but there is such a place as the Principality of Wales. That is an incontrovertible fact that no Conservative Member would oppose.
The second factor is that a series of institutions--for example, the Welsh Development Agency--and quangos in Wales spend money, are heavily involved in aspects of policy, the implementation of policy and the running of services in Wales, and are distinctly Welsh in character. There is then the Welsh Office itself. All those should be brought under the democratic control of the people of Wales. That is what the Bill did.
We also held a referendum. I accept that there was a very small majority, but the will of the people of Wales was that they should have their Welsh Assembly and that is what they will have.
Sir Michael Spicer (West Worcestershire):
It seems to be central to the Minister's argument that English interests are properly represented in Cabinet and in the Government. If he considers the fact that, in Scotland, almost all items of domestic expenditure--per capita expenditure, for example--are almost twice, or much
Mr. Howarth:
The hon. Gentleman is referring to the Barnett formula. Towards the end of last year, there was an interesting Treasury Select Committee inquiry into precisely that point. It called in particular for the needs assessment to be updated. We have made it clear that any substantial revision of the arrangements would be preceded by an in-depth study of relative spending requirements and that such an exercise would be the subject of proper consultation between the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Executive and the Welsh Assembly after devolution. The hon. Gentleman raises a problem that we are aware of, but until we work out the relative needs of England, Scotland and Wales and until there is a proper discussion between the respective bodies, it is impossible to say what is right and what is wrong. A mechanism has already been announced to deal with the matter, but it cannot come into operation until all those arrangements are properly in place.
The third important aspect of our constitutional arrangements is the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into UK law. As one of my hon. Friends has said, we are bringing those rights back to the British people. That was an important commitment in our manifesto. Whatever any Conservative Member claims about mandates, we do have a clear mandate to incorporate the convention.
The proposals are proceeding and have had widespread support. It is right that the rights of the British people should have proper redress in the convention, which, after all, this country was heavily involved in setting up in the first place.
The other item on our constitutional agenda is freedom of information. That will be a difficult issue, as there are calls for many different things to be included, but we have published our proposals and they have been widely welcomed. It is long overdue that the government of this country--the way in which we do things and the information that is made available to people--is enshrined in a proper system of freedom of information. If Conservative Members doubt that, I challenge them to put forward their arguments against freedom of information. I doubt whether anybody is prepared to do so. That leads to the question why, in their long years in government, the Conservatives failed to do something about the issue. Perhaps in due course we will discover the reason. The people of this country deserve the same rights as those enjoyed in other parts of Europe and the Government are determined to ensure that they get them.
Finally, there are the proposals for the English regions, in particular the proposals for regional development agencies.
It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
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