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Dr. Julian Lewis: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman, as I always do, with considerable sympathy as well as attention. I strongly agree with his comments about referendums and about having established procedures for them. Does he agree that when one has referendums on constitutional issues, there should be a threshold of more than the mere achievement of 51 per cent. of the votes cast to carry those major constitutional changes into effect?
Mr. Mackinlay: No, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think that a majority of one is enough. If we had proper ground rules, people, parties or organisations could not realistically shout, "Foul." That underlines the point that there should be proper constitutional legislation providing for referendums.
I spoke about referendums in my maiden speech and have done so on a number of other occasions. On one occasion, there was a Supply day debate proposed by the Liberal Democrats--sadly, no Liberal Democrat Members are here--on a referendum on the European Union. I am both a European enthusiast and pro-devolution, but funnily enough, I am in favour of referendums. I remember speaking along those lines. The then Chief Whip called me and asked, "Are you going to vote for this nonsense?" I was surprised--it was a one-line Whip, and the House was pretty empty. I could not understand his objection to canvassing the idea of referendums on major issues. I remember him saying, "If you vote for the motion, there will be no promotion for you." However, I was able to say to him, "Sorry, mate. I am in the happy but unusual position of not wanting to be a Minister." I went ahead and voted for the motion.
I tell that story both to show how this place is largely run by the Executive, and to emphasise that we need such canvassing of ideas. My argument was that if we had a
referendum, I as a pro-European could go out and argue for Europe. The European debate has been one-sided, with some Opposition Members legitimately arguing their anti-European case, but others have not comparably gone out to argue the opposite case. If there was a referendum, we could have a true debate.
I move on to the subject of devolution and the idea of the English Parliament. I have been for devolution--nay, for the federalisation of the United Kingdom--long before such ideas were fashionable in the Labour party. I am a disciple of the late John P. Mackintosh, who was the Member of Parliament for Berwick and East Lothian, and whose book, "The Devolution of Power", I commend. It is much more relevant than Walter dead Bagehot. John P. Mackintosh was a fine Member of Parliament and an enthusiastic advocate for devolution.
For the sake of balance, I also enjoyed and valued the book written by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) from the other perspective in 1976, "Devolution: End of Britain?" Although my hon. Friend is broadly opposed to devolution and I advocate it, I commend his book because he illustrates how devolution became a policy of the Labour party not because it was considered a wonderful idea, but partly by political accident and partly as a matter of expediency; rather than as a matter of good governance, which John P. Mackintosh had argued for in his book.
The United Kingdom is heavily populated and highly centralised. There are 22 million people living in the south-east of England. There is too great a gravitational pull to that region in terms of resources and influence. There should be more local decision making--true subsidiarity.
You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will recall how both Conservative and Labour Members in the previous Parliament had to stay late into the night to vote on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill. No doubt that was an important Bill, but the good people of Grays, Thurrock and Tilbury did not lie awake at night worrying about it. There were two or three-line Whips for both parties. It would be much better if such decisions were taken by the good people of Wales. Similarly, it would not be a prudent use of the time of hon. Members from places such as Caithness and Sutherland to vote on legislation relating to London taxis.
We are trying to do too much in this place. The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) and others referred to the Federal Republic of Germany. They mentioned it in the context of what they consider to be a "takeover by Europe", which is a ludicrous proposition. We should study the federal republic. The Bundestag is primarily occupied with defence, foreign affairs, macro and social economic policy. How sensible. On matters that are domestic issues for the people of Bavaria or Hamburg, decisions are taken by legislatures that have the time and the resources, the skills and the enthusiasm to deal with such decisions at a local level.
One of the myths about this place is that we are a good law-making body. We are not. Regardless of whether we are for or against Bills in principle, the statute product is often seriously deficient, partly because of the adversarial, gladiatorial system of the political parties, and also because we try to do too much in this place. It would be much better if some decisions were taken at a more local level.
I believe that federalism, or the handing down of decisions to more local Parliaments, is the hallmark of modern government and radicalism. It is not just large countries that are moving inexorably to federalism because they recognise the need for efficient decision making and subsidiarity. Reference has been made this morning to Germany. Spain, which is not dissimilar to the United Kingdom, has great local and regional variations, separate histories, cultures and, historically, separate kingdoms, and language differences. Spain has recognised that devolution strengthens rather than jeopardises its union.
My only reservation about the Government's proposals--upon which my right hon. and hon. Friends might reflect prudently--is this. Having decided to devolve, the Spanish shed their powers gradually over about a decade to the various constituent assemblies and Parliaments. They did not adopt the big bang approach. I support the relevant legislation that is before the House, but I am concerned that there will be a vesting day for the Scottish Parliament Executive some two or three years from now, when all powers will be devolved instantly. That is perhaps not the best way to proceed. It might have been better to put the legislation on the statute book and then gradually shed powers over a decade. That process would also minimise what I, as a pro-devolutionist, recognise as a deficiency in the Government's programme: namely, the West Lothian question. It is not only the opponents of devolution who recognise the legitimacy of that question.
My view--I hope, and believe, that I am supporting a radical Government--is that the current proposals are only the first step in modernising our constitution. If so, the lack of constitutional symmetry implicit in the West Lothian question may be sustained for a while. The lack of constitutional symmetry will have legitimacy so long as it is seen as not enduring for ever. If it is clear that we shall move from a Parliament in Scotland to Parliaments in other parts of the United Kingdom--I deliberately use the term "Parliaments", which describes law-making bodies, rather than opaque "assemblies"--we can sustain the West Lothian question. However, the lack of constitutional symmetry that is thrown up by the well-rehearsed West Lothian question is something that we ignore at our peril and that of the United Kingdom.
I do not agree with Conservative Members' thesis that devolution to Scotland is immediately unacceptable, perverse and so on. However, that may become true if nothing else happens. Therefore, I seek to persuade my hon. Friends to have the courage to be really radical in terms of constitutional reform and say that, in addition to Scotland and Wales, we intend to devolve power, not to vague, opaque assemblies, but to law-making bodies in the regions or to an English Parliament. I prefer the regional option, but I would not burst into tears if an English Parliament were established. I have said already that I think that this place should concentrate on foreign affairs and defence matters and macro-economic and social policy. Other decisions should be taken further down the governmental process.
An English Parliament would be rather large. We would still face the problem caused by the fact that there are 22 million people in the south-east of England. Such dominance is unhealthy in a democracy. I believe that there should be other centres of lobbying, enthusiasm and
innovation in this country. We need proactive assemblies and executives in other parts of the United Kingdom that will fight their corner.
If we were really in the business of reforming the constitution, we could perhaps create an upper house such as the Bundesrat or a senate, which reflected and gave parity to regions of the United Kingdom that are not wealthy or densely populated. They would be on equal footing with the 22 million people who live in the south-east of England and the 8 million people who live in the Greater London area.
We must not view this programme of reform in isolation--it must be part of a wider package. We must ensure that all corners of the United Kingdom have the capacity to influence and shape the decisions that affect the quality of life of all people.
I enthusiastically support the programme of devolution to Scotland as a devolutionist and not as a matter of political expediency. I support also the decision to have an assembly in Wales. However, I think that one of the reasons for the low turnout in the Welsh referendum was that the people of Wales were not being offered sufficient powers.
If we produce new arrangements for Scotland and Wales, we cannot stop there. If we did, we would then begin to imperil the Union, a Union that I whole-heartedly support. In my view, the Union will be buttressed and sustained if we introduce regional Parliaments with bold and innovative powers, and reform our constitution elsewhere.
As I have said, I am proud to be a member of the Labour party. I want my party to be radical, but I must make the historic observation that some of the constitutional reforms of this century--I regret this--have not been introduced by the Labour party.
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