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Mr. Luff: We do not have a regional structure but an administrative one, designed for administrative convenience. It is of no relevance or purpose to the people of Worcestershire that there is a Government office for the west midlands.

Mrs. Ellman: The hon. Gentleman illustrates my point. We do have a regional structure. Far from being simply administrative, it takes decisions that profoundly affect life in our regions. I am surprised that, even at this juncture, he does not understand that.

There is major spending by regional offices in England. One study identifies expenditure of some £15 billion on economic development alone. The decisions of regional offices relate to a wide range of functions, such as economic development, transport and education. Many relate to European issues. In recent years, great concern has been expressed that decisions on the disbursement of European funds intended to bring additional benefit to regions such as the north-east and the north-west have been in the hands of regional offices, where justice has not always been done.

Beyond the boundaries of regional offices, there is the question of the quango state. Many quangos operate regionally, taking decisions about the welfare and future of people in the regions without being accountable to their people. Increasingly, the important issue is not whether there should be a regional structure but how to make it more open, accountable and relevant to the needs of people in the regions.

The issues were further highlighted this week by our debate on regional development agencies. Most people believe that such agencies are essential in focusing the public and private sectors, in investing in businesses, in developing training and retraining, and in ensuring the correct supply of industrial premises and sites for development to secure jobs and prosperity. That proposition is supported by the Confederation of British Industry, British Chambers of Commerce, the Local Government Association, the Countryside Commission, the voluntary sector, and by further and higher education; by virtually everyone except the Conservative party in Westminster. It would do much good if Conservative Members were to do a little travelling around the country, where they would discover that in the regions, even their own members are enthusiastic about the case for regional development agencies.

Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings): In that case, will the hon. Lady accept this challenge?

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I am happy to go with her to any region to try to identify this great enthusiasm, this burning desire for regional government. In Lincolnshire, people do not even know that they live in the east midlands, let alone want a regional assembly there.

Mrs. Ellman: Before the hon. Gentleman embarks on his travels, I suggest that he talks to the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), who represented the Conservative party on a panel at an important conference in Manchester town hall on 6 November last year, organised by Granada Television. The all-day conference had a wide range of participants, including many from business. It discussed the future of the north-west and specifically considered regional development agencies and regional government. He became increasingly isolated as the day proceeded, when he spoke not only against regional government but against regional development agencies, much to the incredulity of the audience, including the majority of business participants.

After the conference, Granada conducted a poll that showed that about 67 per cent. of the participating people of the north-west thought that there should be regional government in the north-west. The right hon. Member for Devizes got a shock when he came to north-west England. Anyone who wants to tell the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) to embark on his travels should first discuss with the right hon. Gentleman his experiences that day and the snapshot response that he received from the people of the north-west.

Mr. Grieve: I should be interested to know how it was that the conference took place and from where its participants were drawn. My experience of travelling around the country, especially in the north-west, but also in the north-east, is that while urban areas desire greater regional government--a desire that may be capable of being met--outside them, there is vitriolic objection to the prospect of being governed from those very urban centres.

Mrs. Ellman: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue the question of who was invited to the conference, he should address that to its organisers, Granada Television. The participants came from a wide area, and included many people from business and commerce.

Increasingly, over the past five or six years, people from across the north-west--especially but not exclusively from the business sector--have understood the importance of developing the region's economy and structure and of the need for greater accountability and openness, so that the needs of the people and businesses of the north-west can be addressed more fully and effectively.

One feature of our debate on Wednesday was the recognition that in considering economic development in the regions, it was important to examine broader issues. That has also been the experience of people in the north-west. While it is important to look at business development, it is also important to consider communications, transport and the development of our airways, roads and rail services. While we are considering the importance of the development of skills and skills training and retraining, it is important to consider higher

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and further education. When we do that, we start to realise that decisions in further and higher education are taken by quangos that are unresponsive to the needs of the people of the region. Therefore, it is increasingly important that we examine accountability throughout the region and understand that there is regional tier that is currently unaccountable.

One of the key features that was identified earlier this week was the accountability of the regional agency and the importance of regional chambers. Opposition Members made a number of contradictory comments about regional chambers. They claimed that they were against regional development, yet said that they wanted to see regional chambers strengthened. The way to strengthen regional chambers is to make them directly elected. In the meantime, it is appropriate that they should be identified and recognised and that they comprise mainly elected members from local authorities, so that there is a continuing dialogue between the elected base in the region and the regional agency.

If Opposition Members are really concerned about the future of England, they should not pretend that England is a monolith. They should recognise regional diversity and the differing strengths of the economy in the different regions. In trying to do something about that, they should not ignore the reality of regionalism but should realise that we need to make the existing regional structures both accountable and effective. That is the only way in which the needs of the people within our regions as well as between them can be dealt with in a proper way.

Regions cannot operate in isolation. Regional chambers and regional assemblies cannot operate in isolation either. We need to have a strong Government at the centre and we need to have strong local government. If we are to ensure that the people of England develop in a way that meets their aspirations in the best possible way, we must ensure that we have more accountable and democratic institutions.

Therefore, I say to the supporters of the Bill that it is misinformed and misguided. It rests on the assumption that the United Kingdom is being broken up, when that is not the case. The wishes and needs of the people of Wales and Scotland are correctly being taken into account. Instead of trying to create a monolith of England without recognising the importance of the regions, we should accept and welcome the fact that we are in the United Kingdom, which is very good and correct, but that within that we should bring more accountability to the existing regional structures, so that the aspirations of people throughout the United Kingdom can be fulfilled in a proper way.

12.1 pm

Mr. David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden): As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) seems to confuse the interests of the national identity with the interests of regional bureaucracy, and as we had a regional development debate earlier this week, I do not propose to follow her line of argument. The decision of the Scots and Welsh people, however marginal, has posed an enormously difficult question for those of us who are principally concerned about the integrity of the United Kingdom. That fear has been made even more terrifying by the comment of the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) that devolution is a process, not an

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event. Devolution makes England, Scotland and Wales unequal partners. The problem that we must now resolve is how to deliver a fair deal to England without undermining the Union.

There has been so much deliberate misunderstanding of motive in this debate and others that I want to elaborate my motives for a moment. I do not speak as an English nationalist--quite deliberately not. I was born in and represent part of Yorkshire, so I consider myself quintessentially an Englishman. The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) made today perhaps the best speech that I have ever heard him make. I hope that that does not do him too much harm. Like him, I have lines in my family that go back to the west of Scotland, to mid and south Wales and to south Armagh in the north of Ireland. I consider myself an Englishman but I am, above all, a citizen subject of the United Kingdom.

I am proud of all that the United Kingdom has done in history. We have made enormous advances in literature, science and the arts and in our approach to the world. We have brought civilisation to much of the world and civilised values and tolerance in our dealing with much of it. In being proud of that, I am as proud of the Scottish engineer James Watt as I am of the Englishman Brunel.


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