Mr. Jenkin: In view of the hon. Gentleman's support for the idea that English Members should sit as the English Parliament, does he think it right that the suggestion that Scottish Members should sit as the Scottish Parliament was dismissed so lightly when it was made by the Conservatives at the Scottish Grand Committee? With a Labour majority in the House and the Scottish Grand Committee, the Scottish Parliament could be given such amount of power as the Government wanted it to have without having to duplicate bureaucracies and buildings.

Mr. Hughes: As it happens, I did not think that that was a particularly bad idea, as long as the electoral system used was fair. In the event, the Scottish Constitutional Convention, in which the Liberal Democrats took part, came up with a preferred option that seemed to command widespread support among politicians and other Scottish interests. That seems a better approach. We might have gone down the road suggested by the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), but in recent years there has been no coherent approach to constitutional reform.

Even if we had an English Parliament, a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly or Welsh Parliament, and an assembly, or whatever it may be called, in Northern Ireland, we would not necessarily be a federal country. As the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst rightly said, that is a separate issue. This would be the United Kingdom unitary Parliament. If we wanted to become a federal country, like Germany and many others, our four component parts would have to come together separately and they would each have separate powers. We imposed the system of a Bundestag and Bundesrat on the Germans after the war to protect various interests. Other countries have senates that represent the various states.

I was encouraged yesterday to welcome the conversion of the hon. Member for Billericay to the cause of federalism. It was a nice line, but unfair on the hon. Lady. One does not have to be a federalist to support an English Parliament. It is consistent with a unitary United Kingdom Government. I do not seek today to persuade the House to go down the road of federalism, although I would personally support it.

An item for the Northern Ireland agenda was presented from Japan last weekend. The proposal for a council of the isles seemed to command the support of the Irish Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister. It is an interesting idea, and another dimension that we should consider. There are British Isles interests. I refer to the four countries of the United Kingdom, and to the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey. Those countries all have common interests, and there ought to be a place in which we can discuss them.

I shall stick my neck out, and specify one controversial matter that ought, for example, to be discussed. I speak as a Member of Parliament a third of whose constituents--approximately--are of Irish origin. In this country--I include Northern Ireland in that--Irish citizens have full

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I do not suggest that we need a forum that is constitutionally complex. We need a forum in which the four countries of the United Kingdom, and Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, can come together. All sorts of issues could be discussed. I could suggest, mischievously, that we could discuss, for example, offshore tax havens, but perhaps that is too topical.

If the Northern Irish are to be asked what their future should be--and, interestingly, the Irish, in the same context--and if the Welsh and the Scottish have already been asked, for heaven's sake, the English should be asked. I can perhaps say with slightly more authority even than the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst--but with as much authority as the hon. Member for Billericay, as one who was born in England but is of mixed racial origin--that my constituents want to be included, and feel that they are being left out. Like me, they are proud of their Englishness, as they are entitled to be. Nationalism need not be damaging or antagonistic. Unless people have a vehicle enabling them to debate national issues, they will rightly resent the provision of such a vehicle for others.

I welcome today's debate, because I think that we have fudged the issues for far too long. The West Lothian question needs to be answered: it should not be possible for the Scots to vote on English or Welsh legislation in a one-way context, when the English or Welsh cannot vote in the same way on Scottish legislation. The sooner we sit down and deal with such issues, the better. I hope that we shall have a Speaker's Conference or a constitutional convention, in which all of us, and people outside, can take part. That would be a welcome innovation, allowing us to try to right matters in time for the next millennium.

I think that it was G. K. Chesterton who said--I have not checked the exact wording, but I quote his observation on behalf of those to whom the debate is of particular interest--"We are the people of England, and we have not spoken yet." It is about time that we did speak. If the people of England were asked, they would vote for an English Parliament and for tax-varying powers, and I believe that they would vote with enthusiasm.

11.42 am

Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside): The Bill seems very frivolous. It claims to be against breaking up the United Kingdom, yet it advocates doing just that. It completely misunderstands the nature of regionalism in England, and it ignores the growing awareness of the existence of a regional tier. Understanding the nature of that regional tier, the people of the regions of England understand the increasing importance of making it more democratic, more accountable and more effective in meeting their needs.

Listening to what has been said by Opposition Members, I have perceived in the Bill not just frivolity and misunderstanding, but issues that I find very worrying. The hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) appeared to be using the Bill to fuel the anti-European sentiment that is increasingly becoming a feature of the Conservative party. It was remarkable how frequently,

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As I listened to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), I became even more alarmed. He contrasted the allegedly pampered, privileged and ungrateful Scots with the allegedly generous and magnanimous English. What we have heard this morning is not simply a case for or against an English Parliament, but a vehicle for the expression of the prejudice felt by some hon. Members. That should not and cannot be ignored.

Let us get one thing clear. The proposals for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh Assembly, which have been passed by the House and approved by the people of Scotland and Wales, are not about breaking up the United Kingdom. Although Opposition Members have made it clear that they oppose those measures, the proposal for a Welsh Assembly is essentially about bringing more accountability to decisions that are already being made by the Welsh Office, with its £7 billion budget and its 80-plus quangos. I find it remarkable that, even after a referendum, Opposition Members are against the idea of the people of Wales being able to make their own decisions about decisions made not by our Parliament, but by the Welsh Office. Making the system more accountable to the people of Wales--directly, with their consent--can in no way be seen as breaking up the United Kingdom. Indeed, it is about strengthening the United Kingdom, as it strengthens the people's ability to determine what happens in the various parts of that kingdom.

Mr. Rowe: As an Opposition Member, let me say that I have no objection to the Scots or the Welsh making decisions about matters that relate to them. What I object to enormously is the idea that, having been so privileged, they should also feel able to make decisions about issues relating to my constituency and my area, over which they should have no control--although they will have--when they are not accountable to my constituents.

Mrs. Ellman: Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that for Wales and Scotland, decisions will continue to be made in the House of Commons on a range of issues--such as foreign policy, taxation, social security and employment--that will affect the people of those countries.

Mr. Rowe: I understand that perfectly, and I do not object to it. What I object to is the fact that people feel that they should be able to make decisions on behalf of my constituents in relation to issues that are specifically excluded from scrutiny in this place.

Mrs. Ellman: Many Opposition Members have said that they oppose what will happen in Scotland and Wales. As I have said, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is being consistent, and I do not think that he should make such comments without considering the influence that he would continue to exert over the affairs of Scotland and Wales. That underlines the fundamental fact that, in the context of the United Kingdom Government's plans to

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The proposal to establish a Parliament for England, apart from misunderstanding the nature of the plans for the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament, ignores the significance of the regions of England and the importance of listening to the varied voices of their people. England already has a regional structure. That was not known widely until relatively recently, but it is now well known and understood.