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Dr. Whitehead: I thank the hon. Gentleman for a constructive intervention, but I remind him that the situation is not quite as he sets it out. It is not the case that England has had a fully unified state since the ninth century. It is arguable that the King's writ ran around approximately half of the country until the unifying of the Tudor monarchs.
The other important argument is the remarkable fact that, if one were a time traveller and left the planet in 1391 and returned recently--as some think is the case with the hon. Member for Billericay--one would have no understanding of what on earth was going on, except when one espied the county boundaries of England. It is interesting that those county boundaries are almost exactly the same as they were in 1391.
It is also interesting that, during the recent reorganisation of local government, various polls were taken on community identity. They found that people identified strongly with their counties. Those counties in some instances derive from Saxon kingdoms, parts of Danelaw and so on. The boundaries go back as far in history as that.
It is not the case that there is no regional identity and no local feeling in the English regions other than a feeling of Englishness. That is not an accurate depiction of what takes place in England. I accept that there is not the feeling of identity comparable to Scottishness or Welshness, but there are genuinely different views on culture, economic development and localness in different parts of England, which deserve expression.
Mr. Grieve:
I am fascinated to hear that, because I recently attended a meeting in High Wycombe, organised
Dr. Whitehead:
It is interesting that the county identities set out in the various polls reflected, among other things, a sense of regionalism, not just of county identity. That is evidenced by the way in which some counties and local authorities have started working well together to develop their regional economy.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) has played a fundamental role in developing an economic agency for the north-west. I hope that she will attest to us this morning that there is a strong regional identity. There are some strong regional actors, and the setting up of regional development agencies and ultimately, one hopes, regional assemblies will underline that regional identity and make it work for the benefit not just of that region, but of England as a whole. The inclusion of differences is to the advantage of the entire economy and is not destructive of it.
To return for a moment to Spain--[Interruption.] It is an interesting example, to which I hope Opposition Members will listen carefully. They may be surprised to learn that the huddled masses of Spain--if such a thing is possible--did not declare that because Euskadi, Galicia and Catalonia had been given autonomy, they wanted a Spanish national Parliament; they did precisely the opposite. They opted for an autonomous route of their own, but not along the lines of the old provinces. They opted for autonomy on the basis of a structure quite different from that which might have been anticipated, and a variety of forms developed.
The final result is that there are now 17 autonomias in Spain. Once one demonstrates to people the opportunities that exist for expressing their cultural and economic differences within a unified whole, they will take those opportunities on board. The regional assemblies in Spain are very popular and work well. There is no evidence now, as there was immediately after the 1978 constitution, that Spain will break up. Indeed, the leaders of Catalonia in particular have veered away from the separatist arguments that they were advancing a few years ago.
Sir Richard Body (Boston and Skegness):
Adjacent to Spain is Andorra, which is a member of the United Nations and has all the elements of a nation state. It is entirely self-governing, yet its population is smaller than any of our counties. Would it not be sensible to consider devolution to our counties, and giving powers back to them? Andorra is not the only such country. Among others, there is Liechtenstein. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have smaller populations than many of our counties. If they can be viable as nation states, can we not give power back to some of our county councils, rather than establishing regional assemblies?
Dr. Whitehead:
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that one should not be slavish about population size when considering ways in which local and regional wishes for autonomy can be expressed. I am not sure that Andorra is a good example, because its constitution is
Mr. Luff:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It may be useful for the purposes of comparison to hear about the experiences of other members of the European Union, but this is primarily a debate about England and many of us are anxious to get on to that subject, rather than discussing the future of the Spanish constitution.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
This is a Second Reading debate of a general nature, as the speech of the mover showed. Nothing that I have heard has been out of order.
Dr. Whitehead:
If we do not learn the lessons of history, we shall be condemned for ever to repeat the mistakes of history. The case of Spain is relevant and fascinating in light of the present debate in this country.
Hon. Members will be relieved to know that I shall shortly depart from Spain. The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Sir R. Body) should be reminded that La Rioja, which was a Franco province, opted for regional autonomous arrangements, which were granted to it. The Spanish regional assemblies represent populations of widely varying sizes, ranging from 7 million in Catalonia to 260,000 in La Rioja. Some of the Spanish regions mirror the size of English counties in their population.
I do not believe that there should be a size formula for regionalism. I trust that, as the arrangements in this country develop, that will be taken into account. I was delighted that, when the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions introduced the White Paper on regional development agencies, he said:
Finally, I shall give an example from a leading French regional academic of how French regions have worked. When the French regions were introduced, it was predicted that they would be unworkable, that they would have no resonance in the minds of French people and that they would disappear as soon as the ink was dry on the
laws that brought them into being. The opposite has occurred. In referring to the French regions, the French academic says:
"As we made clear in our manifesto, we are committed to moving, with the consent of local people, to directly elected regional government in England. That complements devolution in Scotland and Wales and the creation of a Greater London assembly. Demand for directly elected regional government varies across England, and it would be wrong to envisage a uniform approach at this stage. Local authorities and their regional partners are already creating voluntary chambers. We welcome that development and intend to build on it as a mechanism through which regional development agencies will have greater regional accountability."--[Official Report, 3 December 1997; Vol. 302, c. 359.]
That sets out in terms of the English agenda some aspects of the Spanish experience that I described. There is no suggestion that all regions move at the same pace, that devolution should be uniform, or that the unitary nature of the UK constitution should be broken up. Different regional aspirations and economic requirements can be given voice through the Government's proposals, which I welcome.
"Instead of becoming just another body to aid economic regeneration, regions can develop other roles through their ability to initiate policy and the way they can overcome the fragmentation of existing institutions responsible for formulating and implementing Government initiatives. In spite of their many difficulties, it is the innovative and dynamic role of some French regions which strikes the observer."
I am sure that we shall hear this morning how regions, within a unified and unitary constitution such as continues in France, can exercise that dynamic role. It must be to the advantage of our nation to liberate the energies and the good will of those in the regions who have felt for too long that they do not have a say in their own destinies.
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