Mr. Lawrie Quinn (Scarborough and Whitby): Will the hon. Lady please tell me whether she has ever seen English morris-dancing?

Mrs. Gorman: I have, and morris-dancers are very jolly, but they do not appear too often.

Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield): Is my hon. Friend aware that the kilt as currently worn was invented by a merchant from Bolton, that it was taken to the highlands in the middle of the 18th century and that he was the first to manufacture it? There is an interesting book on the subject called "The Invention of Tradition", which deals with many aspects of current Scottish culture. It shows that many were derived directly from that period and that some were produced for them by the English.

Mrs. Gorman: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, which gives a wonderful example, not only of English entrepreneurship, but of the fact that we are prepared to go far and wide in order to sell our goods. Anyone who can persuade a Scottish gentleman to wear a skirt must be a very good business man indeed. It certainly beats selling fridges to Eskimos.

The English have feelings about their homeland, of course. We do not usually run around shouting about them, but we do occasionally go over the top. We have our patron saint and our national flower and flag, but we do not generally make a song and dance about it--except at the last night of the proms, when the English can be seen expressing their feelings of love and admiration for and loyalty to their country. We hear wonderful songs such as "Jerusalem" and--one of my favourites--"There'll always be an England". I love that song.

"There'll always be an England


And England shall be free


If England means as much to you


As England means to me."

We are not trying to drive the coach and horses of English nationalism. We are saying that, like the Scots and the Welsh, the English do have these feelings, but are perfectly prepared to build them into the United Kingdom structure. We do not want devolution if we can possibly help it, but we cannot help it because of Labour policies.

I notice now, although I never noticed before, the number of members of the Government who have Scottish and Welsh accents. A quarter of Ministers, including Cabinet Ministers, are Scottish or Welsh. No one would have given that a thought until now. Nine out of 20 Cabinet members are Scottish or Welsh born and represent Scottish or Welsh constituencies.

Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot): My hon. Friend said that a quarter of Ministers were Scottish or Welsh and then corrected herself. The Cabinet is dominated by Scots: of the 22 Cabinet Ministers, no fewer than seven--almost one third--are Scottish. Therefore, even without the Welsh, the periphery of the kingdom is grossly over-represented.

Mrs. Gorman: I entirely agree, and I know that my hon. Friend will agree that we would never have thought that, had not this legislation been around. We would have accepted the situation. When I listened to the "Today" programme, my ear was never tuned to hear the accents of those speaking. Before, it would not have occurred to me that the top posts, both in this House and in another place, are held by Scottish or Welsh people, but that thought will now start to occur to the English.

Mr. Swayne: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that, looking at the Treasury Bench, it often appears to my constituents that they are labouring under a colonial Administration. However, at the next general election, the voters have a chance to change that, without having an English Parliament. Would my hon. Friend care to comment on that?

Mrs. Gorman: My hon. Friends' interventions are all music to my ears. I am glad that others feel as I do, even though I am saddened by my feelings, which I did not have before. The harmony of the House and of government throughout the United Kingdom is of vital importance. The legislation will throw up all sorts of anomalies, which will open a Pandora's box of problems with which we have not needed to deal. Whatever the Labour party thinks, the move towards Scottish independence may well be unstoppable. It is obvious that the Scottish nationalists will not let up, now that they have the beginnings of a Parliament.

Mr. Gerald Howarth: My hon. Friend's back was turned, but as she was saying that the Scottish nationalists would not give way, the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) was nodding vigorously. Does not that illustrate my hon. Friend's point? The Labour party has brought forward proposals for Scottish devolution in an attempt to stop the haemorrhaging of the Labour vote to the Scottish National party. The measure is a sop to Scottish nationalism. The Labour Government believe that they will have stemmed the tide of Scottish nationalism,

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Mrs. Gorman: I absolutely agree with everything my hon. Friend says. We sacrifice the United Kingdom at our peril. It is the focus of our loyalty and identity, which are key issues when our country is challenged by outside enemies. Those feelings are not ephemeral and sentimental, but radical and fundamental. As a biologist who spent a great deal of time working on animal behaviour studies, I know how important feelings of territoriality are throughout the animal kingdom and how important they are to survival. Those who are not scientists may feel that that is a flippant point, but I assure them that people's gut feeling when threatened is strongly related to the territory in which they live.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Howarth): Towards the beginning of her speech the hon. Lady said that, strictly speaking, she was not at all in favour of this legislation. Would she be happy if the Bill received a Second Reading, went through Report and Third Reading, moved on to the other place, returned to this House and finally ended up on the statute book?

Mrs. Gorman: Obviously, I did not make myself clear. When I said "this legislation", I was speaking of the Government's proposals to dismantle and dissect the United Kingdom. My Bill is a response to that, to ensure that the English people are given equal treatment. Fifty million people live in England: many of us are Scottish or Welsh and many are of other nationalities--we are a melting pot--but we are not being asked about the proposals in the same way as other parts of the United Kingdom. The Labour party has picked off the bits in which it thinks it can win, and it is being dishonest. That is why I am here today calling for the English to be given their own referendum on whether they, too, wish to decide their own affairs with their own elected representatives, which will, by definition, exclude people from other parts of the United Kingdom that have opted out of the Westminster/United Kingdom structure. In future, English Members of Parliament will not have any say in what I would describe as the domestic issues of Scotland, even though those issues are at least debated in the House now.

Mrs. Ewing: I have listened with courtesy and a great deal of interest to what the hon. Lady has been saying, although I am not sure whether she regards me as an outside enemy or as part of the animal kingdom. Scottish nationalists have always argued in favour of an independent Scotland, and I should like to put two brief points to her. First, there is an evolutionary process working in international politics, otherwise we would not have the United Nations or other international organisations in which all of us have pooled elements of our sovereignty for the greater good of the international community. That is fundamental to understanding where the Scottish National party comes from.

Secondly, does not the hon. Lady agree that the Scots--the people and voters of Scotland, of all the different ethnic origins--have made it clear that they want some

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Mrs. Gorman: The hon. Lady forgot to mention the Scots who happen not to live in Scotland, but who live in England, and who have not been given a say. If they were given a voice and the vote went the same way, we would accept it. The Conservative party accepts that that is what happened under the democratic structure that was used--there was a good enough majority for us to accept that. We are not disputing that, but we can regret the situation because it will throw up anomalies that will mean that the feelings and the relationship between parts of the United Kingdom will undoubtedly change--they have been changed by the proposal. In future, the proposal may have consequences that we have not anticipated. I do not think that there can be semi-nationhood, which is what the Scots will get with the current legislation.

Nationhood is an absolute. Someone belongs to a nation; he believes that he is part of a nation and if he is, that is it. We are witnessing the breaking asunder of the concept of nationhood and the United Kingdom, which all the regions have adhered to, certainly for the past several hundred years.

The proposed change is not a bath into which someone can dip his toe and withdraw it if he thinks the water is too hot or cold. We cannot go back on it; the damage will be done. In England, there is no demand for the regional assemblies. In that context, I believe that there is a case for an English Parliament, which is why I have introduced my Bill.