Mrs. Gorman: Down here, over the border, whatever.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): Could we be clear? Is the suggestion that there should be a repatriation of Mr. Jim Naughtie?

Mrs. Gorman: And, of course, there is Mr. Humphrys, who is a Welsh gentleman. So there are two of them. Perhaps that is why they would not have me on the "Today" programme this morning. [Hon. Members: "Shame."] Is not that dreadful?

I am particularly concerned that the English are being given a second-rate alternative. The debate on Wednesday left us in no doubt that the proposals for regional assemblies were a minefield of contention. There was squabbling over boundaries and over the siting of the headquarters of the new units, and there is competition for grants from central Government and from Europe. Somehow, setting up the new institutions is supposed to bring more money into every region in the country and we shall all do better. There is not much talk about where all the money will come from and no talk at all about the cost of the extra administration or the burden that will be placed on the business community, which is the bedrock that produces the resources. The Government do not provide jobs; businesses do. They will have to bear the burden.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Faversham and Mid-Kent): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the arguments for the English regional assemblies advanced by the Government is that they devolve power? Is it not extraordinary that, as a consequence of their legislation, the Secretary of State will be able to override local planning authorities on every square inch of the country? If that is devolution, all the rest of the Government's proposals are equally spurious.

Mrs. Gorman: I could not agree more. The Government made it clear in their paper that in theory the assemblies will not get any more money. The regional assemblies will not have much power except the power to interfere in planning matters. I can only believe that that will cause ructions between the existing agencies--the county, district and borough councils--all of which jealously guard their powers. I have a sneaky feeling that the Government might intend to start eroding the green belt by overriding those authorities. Part of the Bill, which needs a big debate in the House, deals with that matter.

I suspect that the Labour party thinks that, through the legislation, it will establish itself in the main metropolitan centres. That is to say that it will, so to speak, take over the politics in the main cities throughout the regions. It will build its political power base from there. Everyone knows that England is the heartland of the Conservative vote, and this is the Labour party's way of trying to undermine that. [Laughter.] Of course, Labour Members think that it is a great joke now. They are wallowing, and I do not blame them, in their recent electoral result, but that will change; everything changes in time. The Labour party has two aims: to build in political advantage

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Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside): Will the hon. Lady confirm that it is the official policy of the official Conservative party that Europe is simply about cutting up the United Kingdom?

Mrs. Gorman: The Conservative party is not proposing regional assemblies for England. It is devoted to the idea of the Union. The Conservative party would not have advanced any of the Government's legislation. We believe that the United Kingdom is the proper body and that this Westminster Chamber should not have its powers altered and eroded. We do not want to end up with Scottish Members of Parliament sitting in this House with no powers over their legislation back home--legislation that affects the very people who have sent them here to look after them.

We would not have introduced the Government's legislation. It is gimmicky stuff. It was designed to help the Labour party to secure its position, and it has done so with some success in Scotland and Wales. We do not deny that gimmicks sometimes grab the public's attention, but the Scots have absolutely nothing to gain from the changes. They are entrenched in this Parliament. More than a quarter of all hon. Members were born in Scotland or Wales. If we consider the proportion of the UK population that the Scots make up, that is enormous over-representation, but no one thinks of it in that way at present, because we do not think of ourselves as being different.

Half the Cabinet are Scots born or Welsh born, and they represent Scottish and Welsh constituencies. Scottish Treasury Ministers will be voting block grants to Scotland, but people sent them here to represent them. The Secretary of State for Scotland in the Cabinet will have no jurisdiction over those grants because their distribution in Scotland will be under the authority of the new Scottish Parliament. The question arises: what about accountability? How are the Scots in this House supposed to do the duties for which their electorate sent them here? The anomalies that that will throw up will be tremendous and, I repeat, will bring ideas into the heads of other parts of the UK, including England--ideas that I am sure all hon. Members will come to deplore. I am trying to point them out, because we still have time to talk about them.

As I said, regional assemblies are being proposed not just in England. It is happening throughout Europe. The Portuguese will have a referendum on regional assemblies in February, I think. The Dutch have gone a long way along that path. The model for all that is the German Lander. The Germans are the dominant force in the European Union, and their model is being forced on us. It may suit them--historically, the Germans have had such a system. The Italians are basically a number of nation states that have come together recently. It will not come as any great surprise to them or to the Spanish, but the English and British systems are different. Force-feeding this proposal through these crafty measures needs to be exposed.

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I hope that the Minister will explain the Government's game plan in all this. My view is that the Prime Minister is seeking to reduce the power of Westminster, to weaken our resistance to European domination and, who knows, perhaps when he has finished with us, to move on to the presidency of the European Union. He will be a young man when he loses his job as Prime Minister and he will still have some life left in him.

Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West): Is it not significant that the treaty of Amsterdam that the Prime Minister brought back for the first time gives political direction to the President of the European Commission over the rest of the Commissioners, making that President a real President in the terms in which we would normally understand the word?

Mrs. Gorman: I absolutely agree. I also believe that the presidential qualities of our Prime Minister were well demonstrated at Question Time this week, when he behaved like Napoleon, slapping people around and ordering the troops. I have never seen such a performance. He clearly has this Napoleon streak in him, so perhaps that is where he is heading.

Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow): Still on that point, has it occurred to my hon. Friend that no leader of any country in history has ever voluntarily given his power away in the way that the power of the Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is being given away, so there must be an ulterior motive? As she rightly pointed out, the ulterior motive is that the Prime Minister has set his sights on something altogether bigger: the presidency of the European Union.

Mrs. Gorman: I could not agree more. The Prime Minister is going to trade up, as people say in business.

The English have shown practically no signs of wanting to assert their separate identity. They are comfortable with being in the Union. They have never made a fuss about the fact that the Scots are over-represented in this House by about 14 seats and that the Barnett formula has given Scotland considerably more funds per head than the English receive. I know that my hon. Friends will develop that theme, so I shall not go into it in great detail. We have always, almost subliminally, recognised that the energy of the UK comes from the fact that all its talents are amalgamated. Doctor Johnson said that

"the noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!"

Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray): Rubbish.

Mrs. Gorman: Well, he said it. I am only quoting a famous and illustrious source.

Mr. Forth: I'll say. I took that road myself.

Mrs. Gorman: My right hon. Friend is a wonderful example.

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The English have been taken too much for granted. I love that song by Flanders and Swann called "Patriotic Prejudice". It ends with the words:

"The English are moral


The English are good


And clever and modest


And misunderstood."