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Sir Norman Fowler (Sutton Coldfield): I welcome the fact that there was an agreement in Kyoto last week because, surely, that reflects a growing acceptance by national Governments that international action is needed to tackle the problem of climate change. I endorse what the Secretary of State said about my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) and his contribution.
I am sure that the Secretary of State will recognise that the agreement is a long way short of the objectives stated by the Government and the European Union, and that that has led to disappointment being expressed by bodies such as Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and the World Wide Fund for Nature. Against that background may I ask the right hon. Gentleman some short questions?
The right hon. Gentleman has confirmed that the Government still intend to aim for a 20 per cent. reduction in emissions by 2010. Will he say more about the exact policies by which that target will be reached? How will he ensure that industry, for example, is not disadvantaged because Britain is aiming for a more stringent target than other developed countries? Will he confirm that any
increase in green taxes will be compensated for by tax reductions elsewhere and that green taxes will not be seen simply and exclusively as a general revenue raiser?
On emissions trading, what safeguards and checks are there to ensure that countries taking credit for emission reductions have actually achieved those reductions rather than their having been brought about because of temporary industrial depression in a particular economy? If we are to cut carbon dioxide emissions, that will involve planning policies aimed at preventing as many people as possible from having to make long commuting journeys into work. Is not that another reason why we should do all we can to preserve the green belt in this country and put energy and resources into developing the brown-field sites in our towns and cities?
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House--he touched on this--how Britain intends to use its presidency of the European Union and exactly what policies and measures he intends to propose for the detailed implementation of the Kyoto agreement? [Interruption.] I hope that the Minister for London and Construction realises that we are seeking to be constructive.
Does the Secretary of State recognise that on both sides of the House, with the exception of the Minister for London and Construction, the importance of making urgent progress is recognised and fully shared?
Mr. Prescott:
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his welcome for the agreement. I think that both sides of the House will endorse that. It was important to get an agreement on legal targets, and establishing that legal framework was probably the main contribution of the conference. Most of the environmental non-governmental organisations have made that sound point. It is a first step and no more, but it is an important first step. It is right to call it historic.
The right hon. Gentleman asked how we intend to achieve our aim of a 20 per cent. reduction. I made it clear in my statement that that is a target which we set for ourselves and that it was not dependent on Kyoto. We have already embarked on the policy changes necessary to achieve that. Indeed, the Government's scientific advisers have told us that it is possible and we have already produced the first paper for the Cabinet Committee, to show how that can be done. Methods include improving renewables and an integrated transport system--all of which will involve Government statements and a new planning framework.
I am pleased that planning is no longer an ideological issue of dispute between the two parties. Planning is essential if there are to be positive targets for industry to achieve. That point was made by representatives of business when they met my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister; they wanted practical targets, and we agree. We hope to produce a statement on that subject as a beginning, next year. We shall consider what happens in the negotiations that take place in Europe, based on the legal targets and Europe's legal commitments.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear that he will make more statements about the taxation framework in the Budget--he also made that clear in the recently published Green Paper. Taxes will play a part in the process, just as fuel duties did under the previous Administration.
Trading emissions are a matter of concern. It became clear to me, as I toured various parts of the world and talked to leaders, that each country had conditions relating to how it would achieve the target. New Zealand's conditions involve forests; Australia's involve land clearance; America's involve trading emissions and the new funding arrangements for using credits. In those circumstances, it was clear that no agreement could be achieved on that subject within the negotiating period at Kyoto.
The Americans had also made it clear that Congress would not endorse the target unless the developing countries signed up, which meant that there had to be a further period within which the rules could be worked out. It was important that the measures should not be seen as loopholes--the agreement's credibility very much depends on that. I do not believe that the American Congress will endorse the agreement unless the rules are worked out. There will be an opportunity for people to sign up in March and agree a period for ratification--some three or four years from now, after the presidential elections, when we can work out all the details.
The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield(Sir N. Fowler) is right to say that the agreement's credibility is very much linked to flexibility. That is why we shall use our European presidency, which begins in January, and our leadership of the G8 countries, which meet here in the next six months, to place on the agenda--as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been doing--environmental issues and how we sort out the rules, what the rules are and whether we can bring the experts together quickly. We are rightly considering those issues as a matter of priority. I hope that our policy enjoys the full support of the House, as it is necessary, and I welcome the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield's words of support.
Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish):
I congratulate my right hon. Friends the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for the Environment on all their hard work during the negotiations. When will the treaty begin to work? What are the prospects of the United States ratifying it? What mechanism is there for the process to be reviewed, particularly if the evidence of climate change gets worse and public opinion around the world demands faster action than was originally agreed?
Mr. Prescott:
Those are essential questions and I thank my hon. Friend for his words of support, particularly as he is the Chairman of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs, which will have an opportunity to question us further in future. We have placed the protocol in the Library. The conference is likely to be called within four years, but within 12 months I believe that a conference will be called--I am afraid that the country's name has slipped out of my mind.
Ms Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North):
It will be in Buenos Aires.
Mr. Prescott:
Buenos Aires--I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That conference will be called within
Mr. Matthew Taylor (Truro and St. Austell):
I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister will agree that there was a risk of the process collapsing, and I join others in welcoming the agreement that was secured in those circumstances. Nevertheless, the net outcome of the figures agreed is that global warming will continue to worsen and the agreement will not reverse the position. Further action therefore needs to be taken to secure a tighter international agreement.
Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Government will stick by their manifesto commitment to a 20 per cent. reduction in carbon dioxide emissions, although the agreement is about a basket of gases? Will he explain what he means by saying that the priority will be the legal obligation rather than the UK Government's target of a 20 per cent. cut? It is not clear how that figure will be met if the concentration is on a much lower figure.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister work with the Prime Minister to use the EU presidency to ensure that the EU sticks, at the minimum, to its current 10 per cent. reduction policy--and ideally, with the 15 per cent. cut that it offered--rather than simply reverting to the legal obligation of 8 per cent., which would be a step back for the European Union as a whole?
Mr. Prescott:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his words of support. He is right to say that the legal obligation is neither as ambitious an achievement as many of us would have wanted nor as ambitious as the European target of a 10 per cent. cut or the hoped-for 15 per cent. cut. The conference was, however, about getting 160 nations to agree. The hon. Gentleman may know that the conference could not settle its differences by voting; everything had to be done by consensus, which made matters far more difficult.
The real point is the net reduction of greenhouse gases. The reduction in greenhouse gases by developed countries--only the developed countries have agreed to such a reduction--is more than 5 per cent. That is a considerable achievement; most people predicted a far lower figure. The hon. Gentleman is, however, right to point out that greenhouse gas emissions also come from developing countries. They were not prepared--indeed, this was part of the Berlin mandate--to sign up to reductions. They made it clear that they wanted the major polluters to sign an agreement and that they would then make their decision. The ball is now in their court. If we want a real global solution, we have to get everyone in it, not just the developed countries, and that will make a real contribution.
People will begin to see that many opportunities can come from the changes involved in meeting the targets. That will encourage them to go further and to set even more stringent targets. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the first set of targets under the Montreal protocol was easily achieved, and that the countries involved met again and set further targets. That is a useful example to us; we must get on with the job.
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