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10.50 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tony Lloyd): May I say, without any intention to flatter, that my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has a well-deserved reputation for personal courtesy, which is matched only by his diligence in pursuing the issues he takes up. I thank him for his courtesy in giving me notice of at least some of the issues that he raised this evening. It is important to place on record, for him and for those listening to the debate in the Chamber and more widely, his tenacity over a long period. Many people are not sure that they have received definitive answers on the issue.
I well remember when, just before Christmas 1988, the first news reports began to come in about a plane disappearing. Eventually the full scale of the tragedy that took place over Lockerbie became apparent. What happened there was an outrage perpetrated by evil people. On that, the whole House would be at one.
Even after the time that has passed, I place on record my deep sympathy for those who lost family on that night. I also pay tribute to all those who assisted in and around
Lockerbie on the night of the disaster and on the days following. I am conscious that the scale of the operation, from the sensitive matter of how to deal with the deceased and their distraught relatives to the collection of the debris from the aircraft, was on a scale well beyond any disaster that we have ever experienced in this country. I recognise, too, the work done by the Dumfries and Galloway constabulary, who conducted the investigation.
I understand the frustration of the bereaved relatives, who have not only had to cope with their private loss, but whose grieving process has been made more difficult by their uncertainty about the significance of the evidence and the lack of progress. Some eight and a half years on, we seem no nearer to holding a trial of those accused of the bombing than when the Lord Advocate announced the issue of warrants against the two Libyan intelligence officers in November 1991.
It is only five and a half weeks since the Government were elected. No one can come to the issue entirely fresh, but I and my colleagues in the Foreign Office and the Scottish legal offices approach it with a freshness of mind, not with preconceived notions. We are new to the scale of the detail involved. I know that my hon. Friend understands that he is ambitious in his expectations of Ministers' capacities. We must master a difficult brief that is spread over the eight and a half years since the Lockerbie disaster.
I stress that Lockerbie is not, and cannot be, an issue of low or no priority to this Government. It is an important issue which we shall continue to visit. In the coming weeks, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and other Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers will give the matter the considered attention it rightly deserves, and, together with the Lord Advocate, will consider the best way of handling its international implications.
However, I underline the fact that I am not here tonight to raise expectations that this Government's views will differ from those of the last Government, because I think that it would be unfair to raise people's hopes at this stage. The Government are well aware that the Scottish petition warrants were obtained only after the most extensive criminal investigation known in this country. Evidence amassed from that investigation enabled the then Lord Advocate, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie--I take account of my hon. Friend's comments--to seek the issue of petition warrants for the arrest of the two Libyans accused.
The then Lord Advocate, together with his two successors, concluded that the evidence was sufficient to justify the obtaining of, and insistence upon, those petition warrants. I confirm that my noble and learned Friend, the present Lord Advocate, has been fully briefed about the evidence forming the factual background to the petition warrants. He is also of the view that the evidence is sufficient to justify the proceedings that have been instituted against the two Libyans accused.
My hon. Friend mentioned the fact that some people may have reservations about the sufficiency of the evidence against the two Libyans accused. Such reservations are entirely understandable when those who attempt to assess its sufficiency are not privy to the totality of that evidence. I know that this is a matter of frustration to the relatives, but the prosecuting and investigating authorities have been very careful not to
disclose details of the evidence in the case while criminal proceedings are pending, because of the threat that that could present to any criminal trial of the two accused.
The Lord Advocate is the appropriate person to assess the sufficiency of this case, and, as I have said, no fewer than four Lords Advocate have assessed the case. The present Lord Advocate certainly does not fear the former Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher, and he does not allow his judgment to be affected.
My noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate also remains of the view that the Lockerbie investigation should not be regarded as closed. Anyone with any evidence relevant to the inquiry should make it available to the Dumfries and Galloway constabulary. My hon. Friend has raised several detailed points, and I do not think that it will assist him or the House if I try to respond to them tonight. I shall re-examine his points in detail, as I do not want to appear to dismiss them without examining them properly.
My hon. Friend described the delay in bringing this matter to trial as quite unacceptable. That delay has been occasioned by the Libyan authorities' failure to make the two accused available for trial in Scotland or in the United States--as required not by this country, but by the United Nations Security Council sanctions.
As long ago as September 1993, the Libyan authorities expressed their satisfaction with assurances given to them through the United Nations Secretary-General concerning the fairness of trial in Scotland. Indeed, the Libyan authorities said at the time that it would encourage the two accused to surrender themselves for trial in Scotland.
The Libyan Government should therefore arrange for the surrender of their two nationals for trial in Scotland, which is the proper manner of determining guilt or innocence in respect of any crime committed in Scotland. Like my hon. Friend, I have faith in Scottish law and in the Scottish judicial process. It is not acceptable to allow the accused to dictate the terms and circumstances of their trial.
My hon. Friend asked the Government to accept what he believes to be a genuine Libyan offer regarding trial in a third country. The question for us is whether such an offer is genuine. The Libyan position is not as clear as some might suggest. The Libyans say that they support ideas for trial in a third country, but they seem to have a number of variants in mind.
In a recent approach to the US relatives--which is the same approach that they made to the Organisation of African Unity at the recent conference in Harare--they speak of three options, to which my hon. Friend also referred in his speech. They are a trial in a third and neutral country determined by the United Nations Security Council; a trial by Scottish judges at the International Court of Justice at The Hague in accordance with Scottish law; or a trial by a special criminal tribunal at ICJ headquarters.
There are other suggestions also. However, the Libyans always fall short of giving any explicit undertaking--I hope that hon. Members are listening carefully--that they will ensure the appearance of the accused at any such trial. Indeed, they argue against trial in Scotland or the United States by saying that they are powerless to send their nationals to either country.
One factor that we shall need to consider extremely carefully is the extent to which this professed inability to surrender the accused applies equally to other countries--third countries--where we are asked to establish a court. It seems that we are being asked to rely on the good will of the accused themselves to present themselves to a court where they have said that they are prepared to stand trial. We shall need to consider carefully, and we will, what weight to attach to the chances of their actually doing this.
My hon. Friend has raised a number of points that I shall at least place on record in the form of a partial response. He referred to Mr. Vincent Cannistraro and suggested that the investigation might have been manipulated effectively by Mr. Cannistraro, formerly of the CIA. The investigation proceeded on the same basis as any other criminal inquiry--that is, by interviewing witnesses and recovering evidence, albeit on an enormous scale. The notion that all these inquiries could be manipulated in such a way that a particular result would be arrived at is fantastic. It would be a fantastic coincidence or a fantastic conspiracy.
No fewer than four Lords Advocate and four chief constables would have had to be party to such an attempt to pervert the course of justice. I must place that on record, because serious implications follow on from the view that a conspiracy could have taken place.
My hon. Friend talked about a suitcase full of drugs at Lockerbie not being fully considered. He asked specifically why the witness who recovered those drugs was not interviewed. I am advised that no significant quantities of drugs were recovered in the course of the Lockerbie investigation. Only small users' quantities of cannabis were found.
My hon. Friend asked about the possibility of evidence being released to Mr. Alastair Duff of the defence lawyers. He asked whether this would not give them the opportunity to investigate and prepare their case. I am advised that that is not possible. The Lockerbie criminal investigation has throughout been conducted in the same manner as any criminal inquiry. In any other criminal case, details of the evidence to be led in proof of the charges are given to the defence once the accused has appeared before the court. There is no reason for departing from normal practice in the Lockerbie case.
I am conscious of the fact that this is the first opportunity that I have had to answer a debate on the issue before us. My hon. Friend has asked for details, and he requires answers. I know that tonight I cannot do justice to every query that he has raised. I can say with sincerity that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, other ministerial colleagues in the Department and I have entered into the question of Lockerbie with fresh minds and no preconceived notions. There has certainly been no attempt to cover up, if that has been the allegation in the past.
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