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Mr. Fabricant: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It would be in the interest of the House to know whether Mr. George Spink is related to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): As usual, that is not a point of order for the Chair and means nothing at all.
Dr. Spink: We all agree with the sentiments in that editorial because they are common sense. Even the Daily Mirror will, I trust, give my Bill a warm welcome.
The most important step in the Home Secretary's crime-cutting odyssey is tackling under-age drinking, and the Bill does that. We had a constructive Second Reading debate and effective debates in Committee, thanks notably to my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) and for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) and the hon. Members for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Davies), for Barnsley, East (Mr. Ennis) and for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton). I thank hon. Members who are present for this debate, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland),
and my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), who presented the Bill on First Reading on my behalf, for which I also thank him.
The most important amendment in Committee was to extend the Bill's provisions to Northern Ireland. I have always wanted that. The amendment was largely a result of the efforts of the hon. and learned Member for North Down (Mr. McCartney), who acted in the best interests not only of his constituents but of all the people of Northern Ireland. In a press statement he said:
Dr. Spink:
My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is one of the strongest points that has been made during the Bill's passage. It would be draconian to ban all alcohol in all circumstances from public places. Anybody over 18 can in any event go into a pub to drink alcohol, and people tend to do that because it is more convivial for them. If they are under 18 they cannot, so they are forced on to the streets. The model byelaw to ban all alcohol from certain areas is a draconian measure and would be inappropriate for certain areas--for example, seaside resorts or picnic areas. How would we handle someone who was simply taking a bottle of wine to his or her home? It would cause grave difficulties. The key problem is that of under-age persons with alcohol in public, which is a recipe for disaster, and my Bill tackles that.
Mr. Fabricant:
I accept my hon. Friend's argument that there might be places where it should be legal to drink alcohol, such as pavement cafes, which we have in Lichfield. Unfortunately, however, we also have in Lichfield people over the age of 18, who are drinking quite legally in pubs, pouring out on to the streets when the pubs shut at 11 o'clock on a Friday and Saturday night and continuing to drink. Why will that not be illegal under the Bill?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We must now start to deal with what is in the Bill.
Dr. Spink:
In such circumstances, the model byelaw for my hon. Friend's area might be appropriate, but that is not covered by my Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope):
Unlike the model byelaw, which does not allow confiscation, my hon. Friend has a remedy in his Bill to deal with the matter immediately, and that is very important.
Dr. Spink:
And it does so without criminalising the young people. There are enough ways for them to get into bother without us inventing another way today. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for clarifying that.
The hon. and learned Member for North Down has been a doughty and assiduous campaigner to defend his constituents from the effects of under-age drinking. I pay tribute to him. I know that he is concerned to strengthen the family, and there are few opportunities for us in the House to reinforce parental responsibility. The Bill is an opportunity to do that.
The Bill gives the police the power to take the names and addresses of youngsters involved in under-age drinking and then to inform the parents. It would be irresponsible to keep that information from parents, who have not just a duty but a very real responsibility to bring up their children properly. Parents must be told what their children are getting up to, so that they can take whatever action is necessary. I hope that the police will use the power to take names and addresses on every possible occasion, because it works.
The "Do you know where your children are?" campaign in Weymouth, Dorset, which successfully piloted last year some of the measures in the Bill, showed that a large proportion of parents who were informed that their children were misbehaving with drink in public took the necessary action. About 90 per cent. of the children who had been caught and reported did not come to the notice of the police a second time. Parents will act responsibly given the information, and no one should withhold that information from them. In giving the police the power to take names and address, the Bill is truly innovative in British law. I do not think that that power existed previously in British law.
Parents are sometimes not helped by the drinks industry. I think in particular of alcopops and the extra-strong lagers and ciders, which are often packaged, named and marketed specifically at young people. Some rogue companies are still acting irresponsibly and promoting those products. The Portman Group is working to resolve that problem. I say to the industry as a whole: "Get your act together, because if you don't, we will introduce measures that have all-party support in the House to bring further regulations on your industry."
Mr. David Congdon (Croydon, North-East):
As I said in an earlier intervention, I welcome the Bill because it gives the police a power that does not currently exist, so I am happy to support it. However, I share some of the reservations mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith), in that the Bill is limited in scope. That is not a criticism in any shape or form, because there is clearly a problem of youngsters intimidating people in public places late at night and sometimes, particularly on Saturday afternoons, in shopping centres. Sometimes that will involve alcohol, sometimes not.
Although we must address some difficult issues, such as confrontations and violence in town centres late at night, it is often people's perception and fear that is the problem rather than the actuality. It is a sad fact of modern life that many people over the age of--I have to be careful what age I say, so I shall use a low figure--25 will not go near town centres at night, because they are not pleasant places to be. If the Bill goes some way to dealing with that, I am sure that the public will be pleased.
Most young people who drink are well behaved. Most young people do not go into town centres at night to cause trouble. Most go out to enjoy themselves. Why should they not do so? We live in a society where people have more wealth at a younger age and have the money to go out and enjoy themselves. We should not lose sight of the fact that it is only a minority who go out--whether they are 17 or 18--to get drunk and cause trouble. I hope that we will bear that in mind.
Young people, who can drive at the age of 17, are far better than older people--I have to be careful of the age again, so I shall say over 40--at not drinking and driving. Regrettably, it is often older men who have not changed their drinking habits and still drive. When young people of 17 and 18 are drinking in pubs, there is always one who will not drink because he or she is driving. We should commend them for that.
I have certain reservations about the Bill, although they do not detract from my support for it. Late at night in town centres there is a fair amount of trouble--windows get broken, fights occur as well as stabbings. I suspect, however, that most of that occurs as a result not of alcohol which has been consumed on the streets, but of that which has been drunk in pubs. Although the legal drinking age is 18, many under-age youngsters will be served in pubs. No matter how much the House may regret that, that is the reality in pubs in town centres throughout the country. Many of the problems on the streets are therefore caused by alcohol that has been drunk in pubs. I readily concede, however, that it is intimidating to see youngsters not only drunk in public places, but drinking there.
As I said in my intervention, it is one thing for the House to pass legislation magisterially, it is another to ensure that the forces of law and order enforce the existing law. Much of the activity that occurs in town centres late at night could be dealt with under existing law. I have immense respect for the police, but it is a sad fact that there is a temptation not to provide a police presence in town centres at night. We should have police wandering around late at night rather than the figurative flying squad of men and women in carrier vans or in cars, who are sent in when it is too late. That often exacerbates the trouble. To make the Bill a success, the police should act like the neighbourhood bobby in town centres at night. However, unless we have a sufficient police presence, they may sometimes be the target for abuse and assault.
"under-age drinking is a significant problem throughout North Down--with all the anti-social behaviour that ensues, ranging from petty crime to the intimidation of the elderly.
Mr. Tim Smith (Beaconsfield):
I am sorry to puncture the balloon of euphoria that seems to surround the Bill, which was promoted by Mr. George Spink among others. I understand the problem that the Bill is designed to tackle, but why does it apply only to young persons? Will not people of 18, 19, 20 and possibly older also be involved?
I have had very many complaints from constituents about drunken youths hanging round their neighbourhood, and making their lives a misery . . . The police themselves frequently claim they are powerless to intervene and curb such behaviour . . . Representing a seaside resort like Bangor also drove it home just how valuable this new law would be,".
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