12.4 pm

Mr. Dykes: It gives me great pleasure to follow others who have spoken and to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) on his excellent Third Reading presentation. I hope that he will not mind my saying that I am glad that his amendment was not agreed and that the Bill reached its Third Reading without amendment: the original text is much stronger. I think that even my hon. Friend would be fair enough to see the force of that argument despite his great skill in advancing arguments in favour of the amendment.

The Bill is important. I hope that the fact that two hon. Members who represent the borough of Harrow are speaking in the debate will not give the impression that there is an excessive interest in horse racing or betting in that borough--it is just a coincidence. The historic link is that Ladbroke's headquarters was originally in my

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Mr. Robert G. Hughes: I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of a second connection, which plays an instructive role in ensuring that racing is maintained as an important industry in this country. Until the second world war, there was an important race track at Northolt park on the borders of my constituency and Ealing--part of the site is in my constituency. We do not want more race tracks to be abandoned; we want racing in this country to thrive.

Mr. Dykes: That moving, almost emotional, intervention from my hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to agree with him. It also gives me the chance to refer--without pomposity--to the fact that I am chairman of the Anglo-French parliamentary liaison group. The industry in France is much bigger than ours and more money is invested in it for breeding and training. I welcome any move to expand an industry that is congenial, attractive to millions of citizens and an important provider of jobs.

I have a predilection for trotting, and I regret that there are no trotting race courses in this country--I believe that that is true, at least in England. That is a great omission: trotting holds a certain monotonous fascination; it is popular in the United States and France, but not in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Maclean: There may not be an official trotting race course, but my hon. Friend is welcome to come to my constituency--to Appleby and Westmorland--each spring for the Appleby trotting and harness races. I might even invite him to make a speech on his views on matters pertaining to Britain, Europe and the world.

Mr. Dykes: I am extremely moved by that kind suggestion from my right hon. Friend the Minister of State. It would be an even more agreeable combined double if the process of amity and connection could be completed by the extension to both of us of an invitation to the next Tote board lunch.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale. Bookmakers have a dubious reputation in some people's eyes, but not mine. The bookmakers I know are decent members of the community.

I do not want to sound too nauseating, but I shall use the appropriate epithets and say that today's debate has been characterised by the contributions of jovial John. If the informal, colloquial uncle of jovial John, my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), had remained here, he would presumably have been hearty Harry. Diligent David, the Minister of State, gave an effective reply on behalf of the Government.

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On a personal note, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) for her kind references to our occasional visits to the races. Somewhat nervously, in case we should give the wrong impression, I hasten to add that those visits are rare. Those visits, with our crowd of mutual friends, have been all too few and far between owing to the pressures of parliamentary life, and they have not happened for some considerable time.

My hon. Friend need not be discouraged by the mistakes that amateur punters and occasional visitors to race courses make when they try to place bets. On a recent official visit to Hong Kong I attended the wonderful Happy Valley race course, where attendance rates and betting money from the local Chinese population are so stupendous that each meeting--particularly the Wednesday evening meeting, which is particularly well attended--adds several percentage points to Hong Kong's gross domestic product. It contributes through the tax levied to some worthwhile local public and social causes. That reminds me of an occasion when I attended Happy Valley with a skilled business friend from the Hong Kong community. He was an enthusiastic and expert punter. We tried to emulate the locals. We stood alongside the queue of Chinese punters going to place bets and listened carefully to the words--in Cantonese, of course, not Mandarin--that they used to place the bets. We were astonished to find that each one said an identical phrase in Cantonese.

We, rather pompously and self-importantly, decided to take the risk of going up to the window and saying the same thing to place the appropriate bet. The amount of money given seemed to be equal each time, which was rather fascinating. When we went up and said what we thought were the same words in Cantonese, the glass window was slammed down as if we had said the wrong thing. We clearly got the Chinese tones wrong. Anyone can make mistakes when they make bets as an amateur.

I conclude by referring to the notable work done by Lord Wyatt, who will soon finish his job as chairman of the Horserace Totalisator Board. I wish him well. I share the general enthusiasm for the work that he has done with his colleagues, the way in which the board has been developed and the way in which it will be helped by the Bill. That does not mean that I would go so far as to share his eccentric and bizarre views on domestic politics or the future of Europe. My enthusiasm in congratulating him on his work is tempered by a fear that, as he will have less to do with the board and racing in general, he might spend more mischievous time on running down Europe and expressing his archaic 1850 views on its future.

Mr. John Greenway: My hon. Friend ought not to be too harsh on Lord Wyatt. I understand that he has accurately predicted the results of the past two general elections and has placed substantial bets, with great success, on the basis of his predictions. Of course, he could not do so on the Tote until now. It remains to be seen whether he will take that opportunity after the Bill is passed.

Mr. Dykes: That intervention emphasises my point that Lord Wyatt is a great expert on betting. I hope that his correct prognosis will be repeated, but some of his views on the future of Europe and, indeed, on the danger of mixing with foreigners too frequently are well known.

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Lord Wyatt, and all of us who have spoken in the debate today have paid tribute to Lord Kimball, the promoter of the Bill in the other place. In the debate in the Lords he summed up the crux of the Bill, saying that the Bill

"will allow the Tote to take bets on non-sporting events. The Tote's betting offices have been hit by the introduction since March of this year by all the bookmakers in their shops of betting on the Irish Lottery numbers. This now amounts to as much as 2.5 per cent. of all their off-course turnover. The fact that the Tote has not been allowed to take these bets has meant that since March of this year it is estimated that the Tote has been deprived of over £1 million and that, in a full year, it would be deprived of in excess of £1.5 million."--

I am glad that the Bill has proceeded so felicitously through all its stages in both Houses. I assume that the House will be minded today to grant it a Third Reading. That would give me much pleasure, as I am sure it would my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale, with all his skills and knowledge of the industry, and all the other hon. Members who have taken part in the debate today.

12.13 pm

Mrs. Kennedy: My upbringing discouraged at an early age any interest that I may have had in horse racing or the gambling associated with it. However, to follow the comments of the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen), I regard the horses bred for racing as incomparably beautiful animals, and I recognise that we would not have the one without the other.

I am here to present the Opposition's view on the Bill. We recognise the Bill's worth and the fact that it clearly assists the Tote in the increasingly tough competition that it faces by relaxing restrictions on the range of events on which it can receive bets. The Tote, with the rest of the gambling industry, has suffered since the introduction of the national lottery.

We discussed earlier the fact that the lottery and scratchcards have increased the number of people involved in gambling. One of the most important consequences is that gambling is less often portrayed as an immoral minority activity, but strictly applied regulation is still necessary. The businesses involved in the gambling industry, including the Tote, accept that it is in their best interests for their integrity to be protected by proper regulation.

Reputable business practice and appropriate regulation have contributed to an irreversible change in the landscape of gambling in the United Kingdom. Betting on horses and dogs, bingo, football pools and in casinos has become an integral part of the entertainment industry. I was pleased to visit the Mecca bingo club in Knotty

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One of the consequences of the national lottery is that it has forced the industry to recognise the competition and to invest in improving facilities to attract people into bingo clubs. That is one example that has been given; the Minister referred to improvements in high street betting shops.

For the most part, those who make use of such forms of entertainment are exercising their own choice and do not gamble stakes beyond their means. It is therefore not our intention to seek to limit that choice. Our aim is to ensure that the firms involved operate legally and with propriety, and that any social implications are recognised and taken into account separately.