Mr. Tim Smith: Will my hon. Friend explain how the pool works? How can the concept of a pool be consistent with the idea that one can walk into a bookmakers and place a bet at fixed odds? I do not quite understand how that works.

Mr. Greenway: We are getting into very technical matters and, in spite of comments about my expertise, I am not entirely sure that I can give my hon. Friend an answer or that it would be entirely germane to the Bill. As the Minister would no doubt say, I shall arrange for Lord Wyatt to write to my hon. Friend and explain it to him. The point is that people wish to make all kinds of bets at fixed and variable odds and that they can securely be accommodated within all the betting systems.

Finally, I hope that no one listening to the debate will think that we are simply in the business of stimulating gambling without any concern for the possible effects on individuals. We are in the business of ensuring fairness for Tote bookmakers and ensuring that the racing industry has a flourishing future. That is certainly my motivation in asking the House to grant the Bill a Third Reading.

Equally, we are in the business of ensuring that the disgraceful abuse that took place in 1826 and to which my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield referred never recurs. That is why the interest of my right hon. Friend the Minister and the Home Department in the levy board and the Tote is vital and so greatly appreciated. I am utterly confident that there is no reason why such abuse should recur, but Parliament must continue to take a close interest in betting matters. The Bill will do much to redress the disadvantage under which the Tote has laboured for too long and will, I hope, put matters right within a few days.

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11.47 am

Mr. Tim Smith: I join my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) in paying tribute to Lord Wyatt of Weeford, the chairman of the Tote, who is due to retire on 30 April. He has been an absolutely splendid chairman. When I was the parliamentary private secretary to the Home Secretary of the day, I had the good fortune to be invited to a splendid occasion called the annual Tote lunch, which takes place at a very nice hotel in Kensington. Lord Wyatt always made a most amusing speech on such occasions, although it was largely at the expense of the other guests. It is quite right that the Tote should celebrate its achievements because it has been enormously successful.

Mr. Maclean: The annual Tote lunch is not an event with which I am familiar. Does my hon. Friend happen to know when the next one might be?

Mr. John Greenway: On 5 March.

Mr. Smith: I was not aware of the date because, unfortunately, I have not been invited this year--perhaps if certain people read Hansard, they might be able to remedy that omission. It is a splendid occasion and it is right that the Tote should celebrate its success.

In betting, we might like to start from a different starting point, but the fact is that bookmakers exist and do an excellent job. The Tote is an important part of the overall picture of betting in racing, for the reasons outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale, and it makes a unique contribution to racing. I was greatly encouraged by the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Minister about Tote Direct, which is good news because it will expand the business of the Tote considerably and will allow the Tote to provide more prize money for races and more sponsorship for racing. That must be welcome.

The Tote operates not only at horse races, but at dog races. I am not very experienced in betting--I asked my hon. Friend whether fixed-rate betting was consistent with a pool because I do not fully understand those matters.

Mr. Greenway: The Tote betting at greyhound tracks is different to the Horserace Totalisator Board Tote. Most greyhound tracks run their own pool for betting on greyhounds on their track on the day of the races.

Mr. Smith: I am grateful for that clarification--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. This Bill is entirely about the Horserace Totalisator Board and Third Reading speeches should be confined to what is in the Bill.

Mr. Smith: I think you are right, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Bill is about horse racing, but I wonder whether it is not too late to extend it to dog racing. What I am about to say would be applicable and relevant to horse racing.

I mentioned earlier the rather attractive bet that one could obtain on the number of Liberal Democrat Members in the next Parliament--we all know that there will be substantial reduction. Dog racing is interesting because there is a fixed number of dogs in a race--normally six--and the Tote operates like all Totes in that it gives the

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Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. This Bill is about horses, not dogs.

Mr. Smith: I am very disappointed at your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because it means that I shall be unable to give you some very helpful advice about how you should bet the next time you attend dog racing.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: To ensure that there is no misunderstanding, let me say that I am going to Newbury races tomorrow and they are for horses only.

Mr. Smith: I am delighted to hear that. Newbury race course is one of the most attractive race courses in the country--I am sure that the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) agrees that it is an excellent course. I hope you have a fantastic day out, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I hope that you place all your bets with the Tote; and I hope that you have great success and come in on Monday morning with a big smile on your face. The Tote is convenient at race courses; it will be near the directors' box in which you have lunch, so you will not have to go very far to place your bet; and it provides an excellent service, with all sorts of combinations of bets.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale for bringing forward the Bill because, since the advent of betting on the Irish lottery in betting shops, the Tote has been placed at a serious disadvantage. I understand that it would have been possible for my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to have dealt with the matter through regulation rather more speedily than has been possible through primary legislation. Nevertheless, the Bill is welcome because it places the Tote on an par--to use the hackneyed phrase, on a level playing field--with betting shops. I am pleased that it has all-party support.

11.54 am

Lady Olga Maitland: I formally congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) on introducing this excellent and important Bill.

I have to make a confession: I am not one of the world's greatest punters. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) recalled, we have had some pleasurable excursions out to Ascot in great family gatherings, although they were perhaps done more for social reasons than for the purpose of betting. Nevertheless, the piquancy of going to Ascot was making my little visit to the Tote, with my £1 coin--or, if I were being daring, my £2--and asking, "Could I place a bet--oh, how do I place a bet?" and they would say, "Well, you can have it each way or for a place," and I would say, "Any way will do, provided I get something back." At the end of a day's racing at Ascot--or at Fakenham, which is enjoyable but rather more on par with a donkey derby--my great joy is to find that I have put £5 out and got £6 back. My fury was aroused when I assisted my son, who was then only 12, with his betting--although he could not place bets, I was able to abide by his wishes. That little wretch would come back with a fortune--he had an instinct for betting which I was unable to match.

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Let me return to the Bill. A natural characteristic of the British is in favour of fair play and we would not be having fair play had the Bill not come into being. It is absolutely iniquitous that, all these years, the Tote--which is an utterly respectable statutory body, headed by the biggest grandees in the land--has been unable, for some extraordinary reason, to operate on a level playing field with the other bookmakers. That was unworthy treatment. It is common sense that the Tote should be allowed to operate in a host of betting ventures other than dogs and horses--incidentally, I am not at all interested in dogs.

I would be interested in placing a bet with the Tote, which is easier than going to some of the other bookmakers, on the general election result. It would be reassuring to know that I could go to the Tote and bet on my own success in Sutton and Cheam--not only on the certainty of winning, but on the size of the margin by which I would win. When the Bill is passed, I shall be able to do that.

The Tote's success will be good news not only for the racing industry, but for the causes that the racing industry supports. I congratulate my hon. Friend and wish his Bill well.

11.57 am

Mr. Robert G. Hughes: I start by adding my congratulations to those who brought the measure forward. My noble Friend Lord Kimball, who introduced the Bill in another place, is well known in the House for his interest in these matters and for the enormous amount that he has done over the years as a Member--first, of the House of Commons and now of the House of Lords--in advancing the interests of the horse racing industry and other country pursuits.

There is some danger in adding the name of Lord Wyatt of Weeford, because any congratulations to him will now look like an application for an invitation to the Tote lunch in March. However, if that were the way that the Tote wanted to read my congratulations to Lord Wyatt, I should not be displeased. He has played a tremendous role in the Tote's success. It has been able to do formidable things for racing, and he deserves unreserved congratulations on that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring), the Member in charge of the Bill, did well in bringing the Bill forward and getting it through all its stages in this Parliament. I confidently predict that it will receive a Third Reading. It can then soon become law.

I have been staggered at the expertise that my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) has shown in carrying the Bill through its remaining stages today. He obviously has great expertise, and the many people who work in that industry in his constituency and throughout the country can feel well pleased with the way in which they were represented by him today.

We should pay tribute to the work of the all-party racing and bloodstock industries committee, whose members considered this measure and expressed to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Minister their support for the Bill. Evidently, the committee had great influence in persuading the Government that it was time that they supported the Bill to ensure its passage. My hon. Friend

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On Third Reading, we may not voice our regrets about what is not in the Bill, and naturally I would not do so. It would have been helpful if the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale had been passed, but we may rest assured that it is safe to allow the Bill as it stands to proceed, largely because of the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Minister on Report. His views were clear from what he said within the limits of selective responsibility, but he stretched those at one or two points, which was very helpful to my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith), myself and others who have argued that the Bill should go further in the direction of accommodating betting on the outcome of the national lottery. That was a satisfactory outcome, and I am sure that the Bill, when it becomes law, will soon be followed by a Bill that will enable the Tote and the betting shops to do the things that we talked about on Report.

Many supporters of racing agree with the Tote when it says that it must compete with bookmakers on an equal basis. We have heard that the Tote cannot take fixed-odds bets on non-sporting events. That appears curious, but it dates back to the Horserace and Totalisator and Betting Levy Boards Act 1972. That may not be as long ago as the 1826 lottery, but it is a long time ago. What was done in 1972 was obviously appropriate for the conditions in 1972, but things have moved on and now, in 1997, the Tote should, as far as possible, be in the same position as the bookmakers. If Ladbroke's disagrees with me, I shall know about it pretty soon, but I doubt that the bookmakers would argue with that.

Interestingly, until 1996, the Tote never applied much pressure to be allowed to take bets on non-sporting events, and the fact that it feels able to take them on is a sign of the success that Lord Wyatt has had with the Tote.

The Bill is welcome. It will do a great deal to enhance the Tote. We have heard today that more is possible provided that those of us who want freedom to bet on the outcome of the national lottery continue our campaign. We have also heard that the Bill does not apply to dogs, and that there will be no dog racing at Newbury. We have heard about all sorts of things on Report and on Third Reading. The measure is most worth while and I look forward to it passing quickly on to the statute book once it has received its Third Reading and Royal Assent.