| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Waterson: I apologise for intervening a second time in the hon. Gentleman's thoughtful contribution. He will understand if I do not follow him down the line of considering individual cases such as that of President Mandela. Will he reflect on the safeguards that the offence would have to be an offence in this country as well as in another country and that, even if someone were prosecuted and convicted of a minor act of terrorism, the
31 Jan 1997 : Column 586
sentence applied in this country would probably not be as swingeing as the one that was applied in the case of President Mandela?
Mr. Anderson: To return to the analogy of President Mandela, blowing up an electricity pylon would be an offence here as well as in South Africa, and the sentence that a judge would impose would not be to say to the young Nelson Mandela, "Well, we understand you, it's the sort of thing that I would do in your place, because South Africa is a repressive regime and, after all, you tried to act in a peaceful way and you've been forced into this terrorism." It would probably, in fact, be a five to 10-year sentence.
Lord Lloyd said:
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope):
I follow the hon. Gentleman's line of thought, but the Bill makes it perfectly clear that, whatever the merits or demerits of an individual case, we do not want this country to continue to allow anybody, for any reason, to plan or plot what he called a little bit of terrorism; it makes no difference whether it is a little bit or a lot of terrorism: we do not want people here planning any terrorism whatever.
Mr. Anderson:
I hope that I did not use the phrase, "a little bit of terrorism". I said that, whereas sex tourism is absolute and one can agree on that, terrorism is a loaded word. As I said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so we are dealing with a world of greys rather than absolutes. That is why I used the analogy of Nelson Mandela.
Mr. Bernard Jenkin:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Anderson:
No. With all due respect, the hon. Gentleman's first contribution was such that I am reluctant to yield to him.
I agree with the Minister that there is a real problem. There is genuine anger, and the Prime Minister and other Ministers are subject to proper pressure from other countries.
Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East):
The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished barrister, so perhaps he can tell us whether a possible combination could be that the legislation would embody the absolute condemnation of the use of our territory for such purposes--unequivocally and regardless of background factors--but that, in the
31 Jan 1997 : Column 587
Mr. Anderson:
I am not sure how much a judge would be able or want to vary sentence on such mitigation factors, because that would be to exercise a political judgment on which countries are or are not desirable. A judge would be reluctant to be involved in such judgments.
Mr. Michael:
My hon. Friend is getting into an interesting area, and the contribution of the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) is helpful, because those factors would clearly have to be taken into account if they were available to the court. We must also consider the balance between what the Bill--essentially a Government-written Bill--says, and the way in which it is to be used. Perhaps the Minister will say something about that.
Mr. Anderson:
I agree with the Minister that there is a real problem. The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) and I are senior officers of the all-party group on France and we understand the deep anxiety of the French Government that Algerian terrorists who carry out atrocities on French soil can find sanctuary here. Mr. Pasqua, who is not the most liberal of French politicians, was recently quoted as being highly critical of the British attitude in that respect.
I would have no problem with prosecuting an Algerian, for example, who conspired to commit an offence in France or incited others to do so, because France is a free country with free assembly, access to newspapers, and elections, and is friendly to us. Those who commit terrorist atrocities in France should certainly not find sanctuary here.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I want to correct a misapprehension that could arise from the hon. Gentleman's remarks. We have received considerable praise from the French operational agencies as a result of our co-operation and assistance in dealing with the Algerian extremist threat. I want that to be clear and on the record.
Mr. Anderson:
I have no doubt that that is true. I was saying that there was a constituency in France articulated by Mr. Pasqua, the former Interior Affairs Minister, which was highly critical of the alleged readiness of the British Government to harbour terrorists. I am sure that at operational level the position is mightily different from that which he has set out, perhaps for his own political reasons.
There is no problem in respect of France, but there is a question mark over whether we would have a problem in respect of countries which had been designated by, for example, the United States as terrorist countries--those which foment terrorism abroad and force people whom we would recognise as freedom fighters to leave and come to this country. The Minister cannot resile from that problem. If we want to try someone who is prepared to conspire or incite others to commit acts against terrorist countries, where do we draw the line? Should we have a white list, as the Government do in respect of the asylum
31 Jan 1997 : Column 588
For example, the Algerian Government are now subject to the most awful killings by Islamic extremists. Every day, we read about more members of the establishment and ordinary citizens of Algeria who have been killed, yet the authorities stopped the election which FIS--the Islamic party--was likely to have won. That in part triggered the present unrest. On which side of the line would we place Algeria in terms of its fundamental freedoms? At least the current law, under which we have no extra-territorial jurisdiction, provides the Government with a shield against those who press for prosecution here.
There may be a number of other means of tackling the real problem of terrorists using Britain as a base. Although Lord Lloyd came down in favour of a Bill of this nature in his report, he also considered some of the other matters.
Mr. Butler:
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. It is more a moral than a legal quandary, but he rightly translates it into legal terms. To put it the other way round, is he saying that there are circumstances in which, for example, the murder of innocent civilians and citizens in countries abroad is justified, and that there should be no law against the people who planned those murders from this country, or if there is a law it should not be pursued? If that is a proper interpretation of his remarks, I find it difficult to agree with him.
Mr. Anderson:
It is not, with respect, a proper interpretation of my remarks. I am thinking aloud and saying that certain acts which could be construed as terrorist acts fall far short of murdering innocent citizens. I mentioned Mr. Mandela and the blowing up of electricity pylons, which could have been caught under the terms of the Bill. We should be aware of what could happen and the wide terms in which the Bill is drafted.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again. We are in danger, are we not, of becoming a little too selective. My hon. Friend's Bill refers to matters which the United Kingdom regards as crimes. Whether it is merely blowing up a pylon or murdering someone, in United Kingdom law that is not an acceptable act. If it is planned in the United Kingdom to take place elsewhere, that is not acceptable. When we drafted the Bill, we were in difficulties deciding whether simply to extend the power to specific offences, but my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) is right to have decided to ask the House to approve the power in a general sense for those crimes which are United Kingdom crimes. The dual criminality rule is the protection.
Mr. Anderson:
The dual criminality rule would cover the electricity pylons. My concern is that the generality of the Bill gives a tang of the divine right of kings; the suggestion that a Government, however tyrannical, however they came to power and however they override their opponents, must be protected against any acts which may be the desperate acts of individuals. I confess that I do not see how we can achieve legislatively the drawing of a line between those countries and other countries. The nature of the Bill effectively endorses the powers that be throughout the world.
"it would not be a great step to provide by legislation that a conspiracy here to commit a crime abroad should also be triable here,"
but it is not as simple as that. I hope that the Nelson Mandela analogy--I could give far more up-to-date examples involving tyrannical regimes--shows that it is not enough to say that the extra-territoriality barrier has been breached and that because we believe, as must all right-thinking people, that sex tourists should be prosecuted here, it must follow, as night follows day, that we must agree with the extension of that principle to the areas suggested by the hon. Member for Eastbourne, although I stress that I share the public anger at the activities of those who abuse our hospitality.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |