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Ministerial Visits
6. Mr. Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to visit Catalonia to examine the system of government. [9912]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones): None.
Mr. Mackinlay: While I recognise the big difference between the Government and the Opposition about the future governance of the United Kingdom, would it not be prudent for a Minister to investigate and explore the full domestic devolved government in Catalonia as a model for both Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom? Does the Minister agree that the devolved government of Catalonia has not only strengthened Spanish democracy but is a model of subsidiarity that has enhanced the Catalan culture and language? No Catalan of great repute has any difficulty in identifying with Catalonia as well as Spain.
Mr. Jones: My right hon. Friend has led a trade mission to Catalonia, and met President Pujol. I too met President Pujol when he visited the Welsh Office and I formally received him. We are very familiar with the situation in Catalonia. I note that the Catalan national
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party fared badly in the last elections because of its association with the Spanish equivalent of the Labour party. In an important poll recently undertaken in Wales among 3,000 electors, the Labour party's version of a Welsh Assembly was supported by only 12.2 per cent.; those who supported some form of assembly for Wales amounted to only 28.7 per cent.; and the largest number, who wanted no truck with it at all that, amounted to some 44.5 per cent. The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, dismissive, but those 3,000 electors are important to me as they come from the Cardiff, North constituency.Assisted Places Scheme
7. Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the effect of the assisted places scheme on Welsh comprehensive schools. [9913]
Mr. Jonathan Evans: I have made no assessment. The assisted places scheme enhances parental choice and has proved popular with parents who could not otherwise have had their child educated in the independent sector.
Mr. Flynn: Do not standards in all teams--in education and elsewhere--fall when high flyers are removed, and are not those standards restored when the stars return? Do not our schools need brilliant pupils in the same way as they need brilliant teachers? Are not our schools impoverished by the loss of high flyers and stars--those who set the pace, such as the Quinnells and the Gibbs? Would not school standards be restored if such pupils were allowed to continue to act as school leaders and pupils whom all other pupils seek to emulate? Why do the Government persist with a scheme that robs all our schools of their most brilliant pupils?
Mr. Evans: Most assessments that I have heard of last Saturday's match say that Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinnell and Allan Bateman gained from the experience of rugby league and that that was what gave the extra edge to their play. The Government's policy increases choice and opportunity. At least the hon. Gentleman has the merit of consistency: he has always opposed choice in education. At the weekend, his local newspaper quoted him as saying that schemes such as the assisted place scheme rob council schools of pupils.
The same could be said about the grant-maintained system, the independent system and the rest. His policy is to ensure that there is no choice or opportunity. Moreover, he is out of step with his own supporters. He may have noticed the MORI poll in The Times today, which shows that 64 per cent. of those who profess support for the Liberal Democrats and 55 per cent. of those who profess support for the Labour party approve of the assisted places scheme--so we shall no doubt see the Labour party's policy change tomorrow.
Mr. Clifton-Brown:
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the proposals, which he may have seen, to abolish the assisted places scheme are not properly costed, as they do not allow for those who would have to return to the state system if it were abolished? Will he also confirm that Labour's scheme is real, old, unreconstructed socialism, levelling everybody down to the lowest common denominator, instead of allowing those from poor families to rise to the limit of their abilities?
Mr. Evans:
My hon. Friend is right; the Opposition's proposals are a fraud on the electorate. He is also right to
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Mr. Dafis:
Does the Minister accept that the Education Bill, including provision for the assisted places scheme, is irrelevant to the needs of Wales and that if it were implemented it could be damaging? Does he accept that we need legislation in Wales to create a rational and effective education system targeted to our needs, and that that legislation should be devised and enacted in Wales? Is not a Parliament for Wales with legislative power urgently needed?
Mr. Evans:
I accept that the majority of children in Wales will continue to be educated in local education authority schools. The hon. Gentleman and the Opposition parties are hostile to the choice and opportunity presented by parents and governors choosing to go down the grant-maintained route, by the existence of the independent sector and by the promotion of opportunities for a limited number of children to participate in the assisted places scheme. I do not understand how a well-meaning person like the hon. Gentleman can demonstrate such hostility to the choice and opportunity available to young people in Wales.
8. Mr. Hendry:
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received on a referendum for a Welsh Assembly. [9914]
Mr. Hendry:
That is an unbelievable reply. Does not my right hon. Friend find it astonishing that only one person in a million in Wales has bothered to make representations on that centrepiece of Labour party policy? Does not that show that the people of Wales are not prepared to put inward investment and their new jobs at risk by going down that line? Does it not show also that they know that they would end up paying more in taxes to pay for a Welsh Assembly, and that a Labour Government in Wales would end in tears there, as it would in the rest of the country?
Mr. Hague:
My hon. Friend's suspicions may be right. In any referendum, the people of Wales would not vote for such a time-wasting and self-defeating charade. The encouraging news for the people of Wales is that an increasing number of Opposition Members would not vote for such a time-wasting and self-defeating charade. Two more Opposition Members announced last week that they would oppose the policy of the Labour party in any referendum--the hon. Members for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) and for Ogmore (Sir R. Powell). That news was greeted, ludicrously, by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) with the statement, "We shall be
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Mr. Donald Anderson:
Does not the fact that only three people bothered to write to the Secretary of State suggest, rather, that people see no relevance in writing to a lame-duck leader of a lame-duck Government?
Mr. Hague:
There is a lot of quacking to come from us yet. The number of representations shows that the people of Wales regard the subject of devolution as an utter irrelevance to their future. They know that the real way to ensure the continuation of the jobs that have been flowing into Wales in recent years is to continue with the policies and constitutional arrangements that have been in place for many years.
Mr. Robathan:
When my right hon. Friend considers those three representations, will he bear in mind the fact that Wales is a nation, and that that is important in considering a separate assembly or parliament? Will he consider carefully who should be able to vote? Will people who live in England but who were born in Wales be allowed to vote? Surely they are members of that nation. Will those who live in Wales, such as the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), who comes from South Africa, be allowed to vote? Should not--
Madam Speaker:
Order. Will the hon. Gentleman get the question off his chest, and do so rapidly? We have many questions to get through, and I have a lot of Welsh Members to call.
Mr. Robathan:
Madam Speaker, I shall be applying for an Adjournment debate, of course.
Will my right hon. Friend consider whether all citizens of the United Kingdom should be allowed to determine whether Wales has a separate assembly?
Mr. Hague:
My hon. Friend raises some interesting questions about whether everyone in the United Kingdom should vote on something that affects the whole United Kingdom--and certainly whether all Welsh people should have a vote rather than only those who are resident in Wales at the time. If we were to witness the tragedy of a Labour Government, Labour Members would have to resolve that question, as well as the question whether their colleagues would be allowed to say what they think in a referendum rather than swallowing the party line that they do not believe is in the true interests of Wales.
Mr. Ron Davies:
Madam Speaker, I must protest: the Secretary of State is attempting to answer questions about Labour party policy, and I put it to you that that is quite improper. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman gets so hot under the collar about the prospects of our having a say in our own affairs.
According to the latest independent polls in Wales, 78 per cent. of Welsh people from all walks of life support Labour's plan for a referendum about our proposals for constitutional change. Does the Secretary of State know
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Mr. Hague:
The hon. Gentleman criticises me for answering questions about Labour party policy, but someone has to answer such questions. The last time we asked the hon. Gentleman about Labour party policy regarding an electoral system, he took months to answer and, when he did, two Labour Members joined the opposite camp immediately. That is the kind of answer that we get from the hon. Gentleman.
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