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Mr. Hague: No. The Utting review is not concerned with past allegations; it is concerned with a review of the legal framework. As I explained in my statement, however, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will keep in close touch with the review in order to consider what measures should be taken in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West): Will the Secretary of State congratulate those sections of the media--including HTV Wales and Private Eye--which, courageously and at great cost to themselves, exposed the abuse that we now know to have taken place in north Wales?

Is not one of the main problems the fact that, in court cases, those who have been abused are poor witnesses in their own interests? Their experiences of being in care have led them to a position in which their truthfulness is often questioned, while the accused are often experienced witnesses because of their profession. Will the Secretary of State, as a parallel measure, accept the recommendations of the NSPCC, which is now asking for improvements in the way in which court cases are conducted when vulnerable young people are involved?

Mr. Hague: I have already explained that legal representation will be available to witnesses in the inquiry. I know that the judge conducting the inquiry, Sir Ronald Waterhouse, will want to consider how best to help people who may feel inhibited in giving evidence.

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Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow): The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Secretary of State for Scotland's watching brief. Is there not a particular need to pay close attention to the, admittedly small, number of children who, when placed in care, are sent from one country to another within the United Kingdom? Several years ago, the children of a family living in the west of Scotland were sent to a home in the north-east of England, owned and managed by a religious order, where they were systematically abused. Is it the case that a social worker working with such a family has ready and unannounced access to such homes in England and Wales, or in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Hague: I will certainly refer the hon. Gentleman's point to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, but I believe that it can also be considered as part of the work that we have announced today.

Mr. John Gunnell (Morley and Leeds, South): In the light of the events that led to the inquiry and of Dunblane, have the Government finally abandoned their plans to deregulate the vetting of those who work with young people in playgroups? Has any rule been proposed by the Utting review, or by the review that preceded it, on the inspection of homes for young people? If so, will it apply to homes in public and private ownership? Will the Utting review consider the value of registering residential care as an occupation, as part of the measures to introduce a general social services council?

Mr. Hague: The legal framework applies to public and private homes, so one would expect the Utting review to cover both. I have no new announcement to make on the other subjects.

Mr. David Jamieson (Plymouth, Devonport): The Minister will be aware that, because of the operations of paedophiles in a minority of independent boarding schools, the Children Act 1989 made such schools' pastoral arrangements liable to inspection. Why, therefore, did the Government pass a deregulation measure allowing those schools to dispense with social services departments and appoint their own lighter-touch inspectors? Is this an example of deregulation potentially placing children at risk?

Mr. Hague: No. The Government's intention to date has been to focus on problems where they clearly exist, or are thought to exist. The legal framework will be reviewed by Sir William Utting, who I know will want to bear in mind a wide variety of points.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West): We welcome today's announcement of a judicial inquiry into events in north Wales, but does the Secretary of State accept that the need to co-ordinate the different actions now proposed--the Waterhouse judicial inquiry that the right hon. Gentleman has announced, the Utting review that the Secretary of State for Health is announcing and the Home Secretary's review of sentencing and probation procedure for paedophiles--is paramount?

Will he forgive me if I suggest that the impression given by Ministers in the past few days--going back to last Thursday's Prime Minister's questions--has been of their almost competing with one another for the limelight

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rather than co-operating, as suggested by thehon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone)? Will he acknowledge that, without careful co-ordination, there is a danger of interdepartmental cross-sterilisation, if I may call it that, between the different inquiries?

Does the Minister accept that our residential child care system is now on trial? These children's homes were supposed to provide care: instead, they dished out a diet of sadism by day and sodomy by night. If this tragedy is not to be repeated, it must be followed not by more inquiries but by action.

Mr. Hague: The hon. Gentleman is right to stress the importance of co-ordination. My announcements today have been co-ordinated between all the Departments concerned, and the continuing work of all Departments will be co-ordinated. He is also right to emphasise the importance of action. The Government have taken a wide range of action in recent years to improve the legal framework as it relates to children.

Where reports such as the Adrianne Jones report, which is published today, recommend action, we shall not be long in taking it. I intend to carry that forward speedily. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's general words of welcome and the reaction of hon. Members. We shall take forward this work with great seriousness and all possible speed.

FAMILY LAW BILL [LORDS] [MONEY] (NO. 2)

Queen's recommendation having been signified--

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 50A(1)(a),


Question agreed to.

17 Jun 1996 : Column 534

Orders of the Day

Family Law Bill [Lords]

As amended (in the Committee and in the Standing Committee), considered.

New clause 13

Provision of marriage counselling


'.--(1) The Lord Chancellor or a person appointed by him may secure the provision, in accordance with regulations made by the Lord Chancellor, of marriage counselling.
(2) Marriage counselling may only be provided under this section at a time when a period for reflection and consideration--
(a) is running in relation to the marriage; or
(b) is interrupted under section 7(8) (but not for a continuous period of more than 18 months).
(3) Marriage counselling may only be provided under this section for persons who would not be required to make any contribution towards the cost of mediation provided for them under Part IIIA of the Legal Aid Act 1988.
(4) Persons for whom marriage counselling is provided under this section are not to be required to make any contribution towards the cost of the counselling.
(5) Marriage counselling is only to be provided under this section if it appears to the marriage counsellor to be suitable in all the circumstances.
(6) Regulations under subsection (1) may--
(a) make provision about the way in which marriage counselling is to be provided; and
(b) prescribe circumstances in which the provision of marriage counselling is to be subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor.
(7) A contract entered into for the purposes of subsection (1) by a person appointed under that subsection must include such provision as the Lord Chancellor may direct.
(8) If the person appointed under subsection (1) is the Legal Aid Board, the powers conferred on the Board by or under the Legal Aid Act 1988 shall be exercisable for the purposes of this section as they are exercisable for the purposes of that Act.
(9) In section 15 of the Legal Aid Act 1988 (availability of, and payment for, representation under Part IV of the Act), after subsection (3H) insert--
"(3I) A person may be refused representation for the purposes of any proceedings if--
(a) the proceedings are marital proceedings within the meaning of Part II of the Family Law Act 1996; and
(b) he is being provided with marriage counselling under section (Provision of marriage counselling) of that Act in relation to the marriage.".'.--[Mr. Streeter.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

4.23 pm

The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Mr. Gary Streeter): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Madam Speaker: With this, it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 18, 104 and 52.


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