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AYES
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Cran, James
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Marland, Paul
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Porter, David (Waveney)
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tredinnick, David
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wolfson, Mark
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Roger Knapman.
NOES
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Beggs, Roy
Bermingham, Gerald
Betts, Clive
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Clapham, Michael
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ann
Corston, Jean
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Dewar, Donald
Dowd, Jim
Galbraith, Sam
Godman, Dr Norman A
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jenkins Brian (S.E. Staffs)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
Mahon, Alice
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Mudie, George
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rowlands, Ted
Salmond, Alex
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Spellar, John
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Turner, Dennis
Wallace, James
Watson, Mike
Worthington, Tony
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
Mahon, Alice
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Mudie, George
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rowlands, Ted
Salmond, Alex
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Spellar, John
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Turner, Dennis
Wallace, James
Watson, Mike
Worthington, Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Joe Benton and
Mr. Malcolm Chisholm.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Further consideration adjourned.
Ms Harman:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Would it be in order for the Government to explain why, when they apparently wanted to push Government business through the House, we have had the shambles of their abandoning it and seeking that further consideration be adjourned? Is the shambles of tonight's proceedings not evidence of the shambles of the Government and of the private finance initiative in the health service?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
I do not think that I need to answer that.
Mr. Alan Veale (Birth Record)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Streeter.]
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Blackpool, South):
The debate that I have initiated on behalf of and at the request of my constituent, Mr. Alan Charles Veale, relates to a rather sad series of events. My sympathies for my constituent arise partly because I used to practise at the Bar, where, among many other matters, I dealt with family law. The debate concerns the family case that has never been properly resolved.
The facts briefly are that my constituent Mr. Veale was originally married to a lady whose maiden name was Caroline--or Carly--Mary Lacey in July 1981. A male child, Tarran James Veale, was born to the then Mrs. Veale on 27 April 1987, and the birth was registered by the mother, registering Mr. Alan Veale--now my constituent--as the father, on 13 May 1987. Mr. Veale believes, and has abundant evidence to prove, that he was erroneously registered as the father. The mother told him very shortly after the birth that the true father was another man with whom his wife had been having an affair.
Mr. Veale also knows that blood tests were subsequently made by a Dr. Grant, using samples taken from the mother, the child, Mr. Veale and the other man. Those tests prove that Mr. Veale was not the father. Mr. Veale is blood group O and the child is blood group A rhesus negative, which is known to the courts as an exclusion result. All that was established to the entire satisfaction of the courts seven years ago. Sadly, Mr. Veale cannot now establish those facts to officialdom's satisfaction, and his problems in trying to do so are the basis of this short debate.
Mr. Veale began to take steps to correct the formal registration of Tarran's birth in 1992. Before that, however, he had not expected problems, since in the year after the child's birth, not only had the blood test established Mr. Veale's non-paternity, but an affiliation order was made in the courts against the other man. As far back as 1988, on the mother's application, the other man was recorded by Weymouth county court as the father of the child.
It is part of my and my constituent's contention that such a finding by a properly constituted court, based on proper blood test evidence, should be sufficient to allow the correction of the erroneous registration of birth. At present, it appears that the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys, now the Office of National Statistics--a somewhat Orwellian name--does not accept that the finding by the court is sufficient.
In 1992, after all the other proceedings arising from the marriage--the so-called ancillary relief proceedings--had finished, Mr. Veale began to seek to correct the erroneous birth registration. It is important to note that the court dealing with ancillary relief matters also accepted the clear evidence that the child was not what is known in law as a child of the marriage. Sadly, it was at this stage, in 1992, that Mr. Veale's real problems began.
Mr. Veale found that the procedures of what is now the Office for National Statistics stood in his way, as it was discovered that Dr. Grant, who had taken the blood tests,
had, sadly, died in 1992. Dr. Grant's records of the blood tests he had taken, after being kept for a time after his death, had been destroyed. I discovered that, on my constituent's behalf, late in 1994. Frustratingly, the records had been shredded as recently as the beginning of 1994, before anybody had requested that they be kept.
The problem with Office for National Statistics procedures is that, to correct an erroneous entry of a registration of birth, the office requires, by law, two statutory declarations from two different people with knowledge of the facts. Mr. Veale himself obviously provided one declaration. However, the ancillary relief proceedings arising from the divorce from his ex-wife had been very bitter, and she has consistently refused to provide another statutory declaration, even though she had initiated the affiliation order proceedings against the real father.
It is part of the burden of my submission to my hon. Friend the Minister that the rules of the Office for National Statistics--or, if necessary, primary legislation--should be changed so that, in a case like this one, the application to a court by the ex-wife naming another man as the father should be treated as if it were a statutory declaration and should be valid later, even if the ex-wife later, as in this case, refused to co-operate or, to put another case, the ex-wife died after making such an application for an affiliation order.
At present, my constituent finds himself caught in a tricky Catch-22 position. He can apparently do nothing while the ex-wife, who was at fault all the way through the proceedings, can frustrate the correction of her own erroneous registration of the birth. That has wider implications, especially for Child Support Agency cases, unless the Office for National Statistics and/or the law can be changed.
The superintendent registrar of Dorset county council, Mrs. Heather Downie at Weymouth, has been sympathetic to my constituent since first contacted in 1993, but her hands are tied by the procedures of the Office for National Statistics, and the office says that the statute law concerned is section 29(3) of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953. The deputy registrar-general, Mr. Ribbins, wrote to me in August 1994 to say that he was sympathetic, but that his hands were tied by statute.
Subsequent to that letter to me in August 1994, there were further unhelpful developments. The man who assisted with the late Dr. Grant's affairs was contacted by me about the medical records, and another consultant, Dr. Patrick Lincoln, was contacted by the OPCS, as it then was. Sadly, Dr. Lincoln said that he could not provide a statutory declaration, as he did not have Dr. Grant's original records to look at.
Mr. Veale has found himself blocked at every turn in his perfectly proper efforts to correct this erroneous registration, despite having a sworn affidavit from his former wife dated November 1991. I shall quote from that affidavit:
That sworn affidavit to the court, dated 7 November 1991, is apparently not sufficient to correct the erroneous birth certificate.
The evidence has been accepted as fact by the courts for all the other important decisions in the divorce and the ancillary relief proceedings to be based upon it, but apparently, under the law as it stands, it is not sufficient for the Office for National Statistics.
On 28 April last year, my constituent and I tried another tack to secure a statutory declaration that the Office for National Statistics might regard as acceptable. We tried to get statutory declarations from the magistrate or the solicitor in front of whom the affiliation proceedings had taken place. That, too, was regarded as insufficient.
The Office for National Statistics subsequently made an offer, suggesting in a letter dated 22 May last year that it might be able to correct the birth registration if someone else could be found who was prepared to accept the findings of Dr. Grant and make a statutory declaration on that basis.
However, that offer is of no help to my constituent unless the office itself can find somebody who, without Dr. Grant's original records, is still prepared to make such a statutory declaration. My constituent has tried, but he has no means of finding such a person, and when the Office for National Statistics suggested Dr. Lincoln, he was unwilling to make such a declaration without the original records. The offer is therefore fruitless.
During the long saga of this case, it never occurred to me, or, I am sure, to my constituent, that it would end as a debate answered by a Treasury Minister. Such are the oddities thrown up when arms of Government responsibility are transferred from one Department to another. However, knowing of the sympathetic nature of my hon. Friend the Minister, I hope that she will be able to assist.
Now that the matter is within the purview of the Treasury, my fears about lack of parliamentary time are substantial. I do not suppose my hon. Friend can see any scope for making the required changes to statute law, if that is the only way forward, in a Finance Bill. However, I hope that she may be able to bring pressure to bear on officials, to break the vicious circle in which my constituent finds himself.
Perhaps she can ensure that the Office for National Statistics does more than express sympathy, as it has repeatedly done, and either finds a doctor who is prepared to consider the considerable legal evidence--based on medical evidence that everybody acknowledges once existed in the case--and who will swear the second statutory declaration that is said to be the only way out, or finds another way out for my constituent. Or perhaps she can find parliamentary time to change the law.
Clearly in this case, as Mr. Bumble said in "Oliver Twist",
12.6 am
"I had an affair with a gentleman . . . the result of which was my becoming pregnant and giving birth to my son Tarran James Veale whose date of birth is the 27th April 1987. Affiliation proceedings were subsequently pursued and an order was made in respect of Tarran for maintenance."
"the law is a ass--a idiot."
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