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1.46 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Steve Norris): I congratulate the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) on securing a debate on the circumstances surrounding the Sea Empress disaster. I heard a large number of assertions, anecdotes, conversations at third hand and snippets of apparent conversations with some of the persons involved in the inquiry. No doubt some of that material is relevant, but I suspect that a great deal of it will prove not to be so.
There is no disagreement between us that, following the grounding of the Sea Empress at the entrance to Milford Haven harbour on that fateful 15 February, the subsequent salvage operation was severely hampered by heavy weather--and that, by the time the ship could be successfully refloated and its remaining cargo transferred to another vessel, an estimated 72,000 tonnes of oil, roughly half the ship's cargo, had been spilled.
The Government--not only the Department of Transport but the Welsh Office; I note that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales is in his place--are as concerned as anyone about the incident, particularly as it occurred in an area of outstanding natural beauty and environmental importance.
I acknowledge entirely what the hon. Member for Pembroke said about the crisis nature of the effect on some of the flora and fauna; that is to be regretted, whatever the outcome of subsequent inquiries or proceedings. It is accepted that, despite the best efforts of Governments and industry in every country, we will never be able totally to eradicate the possibility of marine accidents of that type. We must do, we are doing and we will continue to do, all that we can to reduce the risk.
The marine accident investigation branch, about which I will say more later, has begun a comprehensive investigation into all aspects of the grounding and the planning, execution and direction of the salvage operation and its effectiveness in minimising the pollution. It has already released a special bulletin that included its interim findings on the cause of the incident. The MAIB's final report will be published.
The MAIB was established by Parliament in 1988 to provide an expert body capable of carrying out investigations of the kind that we are discussing today, independently of the shipping industry and of the Department of Transport. The chief inspector of the MAIB reports directly to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. Under the terms of the legislation which created the MAIB, its investigations are to determine the circumstances and causes of accidents, with the aim of improving safety of life at sea and avoiding accidents in the future.
The chief inspector will consider all evidence and arguments submitted to him which he feels are relevant. He has said that the investigation into the Sea Empress will consider, in addition to the issues that led to the grounding, the conduct of the salvage operation; the availability of salvage tugs--
Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly):
Will he consider ministerial competence?
Mr. Norris:
--the implementation of Lord Donaldson's recommendation that consideration should be given to a salvage tug being stationed in the western approaches; the question of double hulls, which the hon. Member for Pembroke did not mention, although I know he has raised the question before--
Mr. Davies:
What about ministerial incompetence?
Mr. Norris:
--the safety of port operations, which the hon. Member rightly raised today; and the effects, if any, that current salvage law may have had on the actual conduct of the salvage operation.
I shall now deal with the sedentary remarks from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) about the competence and culpability of Ministers. The hon. Gentleman is the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, but he is free with his remarks on a wide variety of subjects. I always listen to those remarks with avidity and interest, but on this occasion we should confine his responsibility merely to Wales.
The implication of the hon. Gentleman's remarks is offensive to the chief inspector and staff of the MAIB, and I say that in all sobriety and seriousness, for the following reason. It is quite outrageous to suggest that the chief inspector would be prepared to do other than to report fully, in terms, about the causes, circumstances
and necessary remedies surrounding the Sea Empress disaster. If there were to be questions that touched on the competence or conduct of Ministers, be they my noble Friend Lord Goschen or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, the chief inspector would not for a second hesitate to address them.
If I may say so, the extraordinary remarks by the hon. Member for Caerphilly are matched by the equally offensive implication from the hon. Member for Pembroke that the independence of the marine accident investigation branch would be so compromised that, simply because both its staff and the officers in my Department are civil servants, the marine accident inspectors would not be prepared to criticise the conduct of fellow officials.
The hon. Gentleman made a laughable comparison with the Scott inquiry, as if there were the slightest relevance to the Scott inquiry. The hon. Gentleman is a very bright Member of the House, and he knows perfectly well that the real analogy is the equal independence that is afforded to the air accident investigation branch.
Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North):
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Norris:
No, I will not, because I have only six minutes left.
The hon. Member for Pembroke asked whether there had been any precedent for the investigation of the conduct of Ministers. It may not or may not be the case that this is the first occasion on which an Opposition Member has alleged that somehow a Minister has been personally responsible for the conduct of operations of that sort: I cannot comment on that. However, whether that assertion arises from Opposition Members or from any other source, if there is the slightest substance in such an assertion, the chief inspector will report on it.
I confirm, here and now and on the record, that the chief inspector need not fear for one second the consequence of making whatever recommendations he feels are right. I can say that, in the entire confidence that the chief inspector and all his staff are officials of the highest integrity, for whom we have the greatest respect.
Mr. Ainger:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Norris:
I am sorry, but I cannot give way. The hon. Gentleman took his allotted time, and I refused the request of the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen). I now have just under five minutes.
The hon. Member for Pembroke said that he has managed to persuade many people that they should sign petitions calling for a public inquiry. That is not an entirely astonishing result, given that, for the vast majority of people, the idea of a public inquiry is synonymous with the idea of coming to an independent result and conclusion on an issue that is undoubtedly of considerable importance.
I am frankly not in the slightest surprised that the hon. Gentleman managed to collect thousands of signatures--indeed, had he been more diligent, he would probably have collected many more. I am astonished at the ability
of countless thousands of our fellow citizens to sign petitions, and I admire immensely the comprehensive nature of their understanding of such issues.
Mr. Brian Sedgemore (Hackney, South and Shoreditch):
The Minister is being contemptuous.
Mr. Norris:
I may have been contemptuous to the hon. Member for Pembroke, but I am not contemptuous about those who have signed the petitions.
My assertion, which the hon. Gentleman would not seriously seek to deny, is--I guarantee it--that the vast majority of those who signed those petitions were unaware of the existence of the MAIB. I defy the hon. Gentleman to tell the House that his petition, at any point, referred to the relative merits or otherwise of a public inquiry or a MAIB inquiry; I note that he does not seek to do so.
The Government have frequently made the point that a public inquiry is an adversarial inquiry, involving legal representation, which takes a long time to organise, to hear and to sift through enormous amounts of wide-ranging evidence and to produce a report. It would also be difficult to prevent the evidence to a public inquiry from ranging far beyond what is relevant to the Sea Empress accident.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones (Cardiff, Central):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
I hope that this is a genuine point of order, because there are only two minutes to go in this debate.
Mr. Jones:
Is it in order for the Minister to ignore completely the issue which is being debated here today, for an independent inquiry--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The Minister is responsible for his speech.
Mr. Norris:
I note the further time-wasting by the Opposition.
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