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Mr. Wallace: We never reached it.
Mr. Howard: It is no use the hon. Gentleman saying that, because we reached that stage in the Second Reading debate.
Mr. Salmond: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] I see from the entrance of the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton), that our points of order are having some effect. Is it in order for the Home Secretary, who has no responsibility for Scotland, to make those allegations when we manifestly did not reach the parts of the Bill that hon. Members from Scotland wished to discuss as a result of the Government's timetable motion?
Madam Deputy Speaker: As I have explained before--it seems to be slow sinking in--the Chair has no responsibility for those matters.
Mr. Howard: The points of order are just as bogus as the concerns that Opposition Members are expressing. They know perfectly well that whatever is capable of being raised on Third Reading could be raised on Second Reading.
Mr. Howard: I am not talking about the right hon. Gentleman; he does not represent a Scottish constituency and I am excluding him from my remarks. I refer to the hon. Members for Moray, for Orkney and Shetland and for Banff and Buchan, who have risen in the past few minutes and whose concern is every bit as bogus as their interventions and points of order.
Mr. Mallon: Will the Home Secretary give way?
Mr. Howard: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, who at least has been present for most of the debate.
Mr. Mallon: Lest there be any invidious distinction drawn, the Minister will agree that the fifth section of the legislation applies to the north of Ireland for the first time. Should not the Minister responsible for security in the north
of Ireland be in the Chamber--at least out of courtesy to hon. Members from Northern Ireland--or did the Home Secretary prevent that out of consideration for us?
Mr. Howard: There was no need for any of my right hon. and hon. Friends who serve in the Northern Ireland Office to be here. The hon. Gentleman raised a number of points during the debate and they were all answered, so I do not believe that he has any cause for concern.
Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster): Does the Home Secretary accept that the vast majority of people in the United Kingdom appreciate that he has brought to the House legislation that is necessary to fight terrorism? The threat to the country is from the terrorists, not the police. Listening to some of the speeches tonight, one might wonder who was the threat. To me and the vast majority of people, the terrorists are the threat, the police should have the legislation to deal with them and the Home Secretary has introduced that necessary legislation.
Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Much of the debate in the House tonight has had an air of unreality which would have astonished our constituents. Had they been present during our deliberations and heard some of the concerns expressed by Opposition Back Benchers and some of the fanciful questions that were raised about what would happen if the police sought to exercise some of the search powers that the Bill provides, they would have been absolutely astonished by the approach of certain Opposition Members.
Of course, on this occasion I exclude those who spoke from the Labour Front Bench. They made responsible speeches in which they supported the legislation. It is a pity that they were not able to carry through what they said by joining us in the Division Lobby and showing that they supported the Government in introducing the legislation not only by their words but by their votes and their deeds.
The Bill is an important measure. It will give the police five important new powers with which to safeguard the public and tackle the threats posed by terrorists. As has been generally agreed, its provisions are sensible and practical. They contain clear and effective safeguards to ensure that they are used carefully and sensibly and only when operationally necessary.
Mr. Straw:
When the Home Secretary asked for our support for the Bill last Thursday and we gave it consideration, we concluded that we should support it on the merits of the case and not on the prospect that he would be able to maintain a conciliatory tone throughout the debates.
The Home Secretary said that we should be judged not only by our words but by our deeds. If he reflects on our deeds in securing the passage of the measure, he will realise that not only our words but our actions in
collaborating with the Government have ensured that the measure has rightly secured a relatively easy passage through the House.
Earlier this evening, we exposed a liberal flank in the Home Secretary. Although he was not a Member of Parliament in 1981, he would have supported the liberal measure to abolish the sus laws and replace them with something altogether softer and more liberal. Reading the Evening Standard just a moment ago in the Tea Room, I discovered that the Home Secretary has been infected with liberalism to an even greater extent. He is now seeking to emulate the distinguished former Liberal Prime Minister of the last century, William Gladstone. I read in the Evening Standard that yesterday Soho sleaze was
He apparently spent yesterday evening, no doubt in preparation for today, strolling down the streets of Soho--doubtless seeking to save souls. He said, unusually employing a double negative redolent of the Scott report, that it was an area
He went on to add hastily:
and added--no doubt before being searched--
We are glad to recognise that some forces of liberalism are taking over the Secretary of State, and that, as a result, he has readily accepted the need for safeguards to be written into the operative clause of the measure, clause 1.
We have considered the Bill with great care. We believe that, although the powers are important, they do not raise any major issue of principle. They are squarely based on the powers taken in 1994 in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act; and I remind my hon. Friends that not a single Member of the House voted against clause 62 of that Bill or spoke against it. Labour Front Benchers supported it; we thought it an important addition to the anti-terrorist laws; and we believe that the powers in the Bill, especially clause 1, fill a gap in the legislation that needed filling.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
It is important, as far as possible, to maintain a bipartisan approach to these issues. If that means that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary gave way to Labour representations when these issues were discussed, that was well worth while. Agreement requires compromise, and if serious points raised in those discussions are reflected in assurances given, or in the Bill itself, the whole House will welcome that.
It is worth remembering that this Bill amends the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 and allows the police, and sometimes others, additional powers to prevent and investigate acts of terrorism. The provisions for searching those out of vehicles are merely broader than those in the original Act. The narrower powers in the original legislation to stop pedestrians and to search anything carried by them have been extended now to allow them to be searched, within reason. This wider power has been adjudged necessary. The events in London in February showed the need for it, and I have no doubt that is why the police suggested the change in discussions with the Home Office.
The rest of the Bill is probably not controversial. Clauses 2 to 5 and the schedule have not troubled anyone in the House unduly. What we have not heard yet is whether some of these powers already exist in the Republic of Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) has told me semi-privately--[Hon. Members: "Semi-privately?"] He talked to me just now when I was sitting in front of him. If in these debates we could be told what powers already exist in the Republic, we would sometimes discover that some hon. Members are raising fears that do not amount to fears in the 26 counties of Ireland. The same applies to some of the other countries in Europe. That is a useful context in which to put the Bill and that may reduce the temperature of the debate. It is easy in the House to get involved in great arguments of principle when no issue of principle is involved.
"laid bare for the Home Secretary".
"I am not totally unfamiliar with".
"I come here to go to the cinema, the theatre or the restaurants",
"I think the police do a very good job."
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