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Mr. Alan Williams: First, the Minister has made it absolutely clear for the first time ever that he has the power.
Mr. Williams: The Minister has made that clear, and he is not denying it even though he is able to do so. Secondly, he has also made it clear that he will not exercise that power because, basically, it would mean that our manufacturers would have to produce one thing for Britain and another for Europe. That is the essence of it; he is trying to hide behind a universal standard. Will he explain what is to stop British manufacturers, who can make left-hand-drive cars and right-hand-drive cars, being capable of making cars with and without devices such as bull bars?
Mr. Norris: Let us be clear what the debate is about. The right hon. Gentleman, for whom, as he knows, I have great respect, suggests that I am "trying to hide behind" the European argument. That would suggest that I have any interest personally in finding a convenient bulwark behind which to hide. For the umpteenth time, I confirm for him and the House that I have no such intention.I believe that the thrust of the Bill's intention is correct.
The hon. Member for Newport, West has been rather scathing about the recent research work done to add practical shape, in the form of statistical evidence, to a great deal of the desk exercises and foreign studies that have shown that bull bars are likely to increase the severity of accidents and lead to unnecessary deaths. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has been quite so scathing about perfectly respectable and serious work. I further reassure him by saying that I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham made the only proper and sensible point on the issue when he said that his conclusion may not be deeply scientific but is certain common sense. I share that view.
I associate myself unequivocally with the point that, regardless of whether the research is able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 deaths may have been caused by bull bars, all one's common sense and personal experience suggests that steel bars at the height of a child's head or a young person's pelvic or thoracic area cannot, against the background of our intention to produce softer-fronted vehicles, conceivably be an aid to road safety. I share the genuine frustration of the hon. Member for Newport, West at any argument that somehow we have to prove the point beyond all reasonable doubt. The research is useful, but I consider it corroborative and not necessarily a hurdle.
Mr. Norris:
Before I give way, I want to make quite clear the reasons why the three propositions advanced by Commissioner Kinnock are not in my view satisfactory. That having been said, I have great respect for my hon. Friend, and of course I give way to him.
Mr. Dover:
The note from the Library this morning about bull bars, which I mentioned, says that the results of a report on the survey of accidents will be available in late March. I have just received a note today from the Library saying that the report, to be produced by the Transport Research Laboratory based on 1994 accident figures, is expected to be published in April. I urge the Minister to ensure that it is available as soon as possible because it provides fundamental background to the measure before us.
Mr. Norris:
I shall do so. One of the reasons why the Transport Research Laboratory is still engaged in that
It would be an irony, given that I have made no secret of my intention that the Bill should not proceed, if I were unable to make the argument that is fundamental to a serious debate on this issue. There is a serious debate on this issue, and it is not helped by wild assertions or by implying that every Conservative Member who chooses to block this unnecessary Bill will have blood on his hands. As someone who spends a great deal of his time every day of the week trying to ensure that we reduce loss of life on our roads, I resent even that implication. It is improper and ill-deserved.
Mr. Norris:
I will not give way at the moment. I must make some progress because this point is directly related to the issues that the hon. Gentleman raised. As the House knows--there have been many references to it--I have been in regular contact with the Commissioner for some time on the matter. He wrote, in the letter quoted by the hon. Gentleman, in May 1995 about three ways in which he believed that it was possible for the United Kingdom to act unilaterally in this respect.
The right hon. Member for Swansea, West suggested in an intervention that if I had the power, there was no need for the debate to go a moment further. The right hon. Gentleman has been in the House far too long, and has far too comprehensive a knowledge and experience of the relationships between nation states and the Commission, to imagine that the fact, in statute, that the power exists to effect certain actions in the United Kingdom overrides any Community obligation in that respect. It cannot do so. It is part of the sham, and the deep cynicism of some of those who have opportunistically suggested that this is a political debate, that they have so crudely misrepresented the relationship between any sovereign state in the European Union and the institutions of the Union.
The first of the Commissioner's proposals was to invoke a six-month ban on registration of vehicles fitted with approved-type bull bars, under a clause in the framework directive for European type approval. That applies where a member state considers there to be a serious safety risk.
In order for us to invoke such a power, it would be necessary to show that that safety risk was of a different order of magnitude to those safety risks considered by the Commission when it allowed the approval of bull bars fitted as part of whole-vehicle type approval to vehicles that are already legally approved under those terms. On that basis, we would be at least vulnerable to challenge.
Incidentally--it is important to place this on record--who would be the challenger? My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam says, as a mother and as a concerned parent, who could possibly object? That was the tone of this morning's debate. The answer is, first,the many people whose businesses manufacture bull
bars--my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham referred to them--and, secondly, foreign vehicle manufacturers.The idea that we can just say, "Well, this is all jolly good stuff and nobody can object to it because it is all mum and apple pie. Let's get on with it," is an absurd and, frankly, rather facile notion which I am not prepared to entertain.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham raised a serious point amid all the rather cynical and bland assertions from Labour Members. My hon. Friend latched on to one of the few really good arguments for adopting a temporary ban. He said that, all other factors notwithstanding, the existence of a temporary ban would at least have--
Mr. Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne, East):
Address the House.
Mr. Norris:
The hon. Gentleman knows that my responsibility in the House is to address the occupant of the Chair, which is exactly what I do. The hon. Gentleman's contribution to the debate has been wholly unworthy of him and quite inconsequential. He would do better to be quiet and remain in his place.
The Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty's Household (Mr. Andrew MacKay):
Resign.
Mr. Norris:
Indeed, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would do better to resign, as my hon. Friend so accurately says.
Mr. Flynn:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Norris:
No, the Minister will not give way.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham made the serious point that even though we knew that the ban would be temporary, unsound and open to challenge,we should impose it in the sense of declaratory legislation.In other words, if I understand his argument--I hope that he agrees that this is an accurate paraphrase--the purpose would be simply to illustrate how strongly Parliament felt. I understand that argument. However, you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as the custodian of the rights and traditions of this House, will know that it is not within the rights and traditions of the House to pass legislation that, almost at the time of its passing, becomes redundant and open to challenge. It is not within our rights and traditions to pass legislation simply to make a declaratory statement.I regard that as an extraordinary and unsound basis for legislation and the Government cannot treat such a proposition seriously.
The second proposal was to require the removal of after-market bull bars which had not been type approved. The problem with that course of action is that it would have to comply with articles 30 and 36 of the European Union treaty, which introduce broader difficulties. Article 30 prohibits restrictions on trade while article 36 provides powers to take action on safety grounds, but such action cannot be undertaken lightly for the reasons I have adduced. Any such action would have an extraordinarily limited effect and would be almost impossible to enforce as vehicle owners could simply switch to type-approved bull bars. As anyone who really understands the subject will know, it is practically impossible to tell a type-approved bull bar from a non-type-approved bull bar.
The third and last proposal related to a ban on the import of vehicles fitted with bull bars and first registered in another member state. The proposal would be subject to the application of article 30, as I previously suggested. I ask the House to consider this proposition. If we introduced that measure, we would be ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority of vehicles that have these devices fitted are registered in this country and are not registered overseas before being brought into this country. Such a move would be extraordinarily ineffective. I would have welcomed a suggestion from the Commissioner that I felt met our requirements. However, I was, sadly, forced to conclude that the three suggestions did not present a practical solution in our eyes.
We hope, however, that we can take the matter forward, by agreement between me and the Commission, through making a change to the external projections directive. We may be able to make some progress in that way. The hon. Member for Newport, West referred to the fact that two directives are in play here. In view of the time allotted to me, I shall have to be very quick about this.
Ideally, we would need the pedestrian protection directive in place to provide a truly comprehensive solution. That directive is likely to be some time off.If we use the external projections directive and amend it by a procedure that is not as difficult, we may be able to obtain a solution which, while not perfect, is more adequate for our purpose than any of the options offered by Commissioner Kinnock that have been so enthusiastically supported--I believe utterly cynically--by Labour Members. If we were to go down the course that I have described, it would mean examining the proposal that we have received in the past week or so from the Commission and considering a form of words. I have told my officials that they should urgently examine that form of words. They know that my predilection is to ensure that we find an adequate form and take the proposal forward on that basis--
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