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2 pm

The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris): I congratulate hon. Members who have taken part in today's debate. There have been two sides to the debate: my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham(Mr. Atkinson) did not support the principle of the Bill,and my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Dover) ably expressed his scepticism, whereas the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) and the hon. Members for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) and for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths), and my hon. Friends the Members for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring), for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant) and for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) were supportive of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds, of course, is co-sponsor of the Bill.

In the light of what I am about to say, let me make it clear that I have the greatest respect for the effort that the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) has put into

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Sadly, however, allied to the no doubt perfectly genuine concern that the hon. Member for Newport, West feels about this issue, which as the Minister with responsibility for road safety I also feel, is an element that perhaps might be interpreted as a veiled party political argument: that somehow Labour Members are keener than Conservative Members that action should be taken. One thing that the debate has amply demonstrated, in the excellent speeches from my hon. Friends, two of whom are co-sponsors of the Bill, is that there is equal concern on both sides of the House on what we all accept is a serious issue. A number of hon. Members mentioned individuals who, as a result of road accidents, are sadly no longer alive.

I am not thought of as one who takes some aspects of life particularly seriously. As in most matters, Brian Walden got it right when he said that the vast majority of things in this life do not matter very much and the rest do not matter at all. However, I take some matters extremely seriously and I shall never be flippant about them. The paramount one is my job as the Minister with responsibility for road safety.

I am proud of the fact that, during my time as a Minister, there have been fewer deaths in road accidents than in any year since records were first compiled in 1926. That is an extraordinary achievement to which my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham rightly referred in a recent debate on that very issue. He will know, as the House knows, that my great concern is that we should not take pride in that achievement but remember that every day in Britain, including Saturdays and Sundays, bank holidays, Christmas and new year, on average 10 people are killed on our roads. I make it clear to the hon. Member for Swansea, West that I am quite prepared to be unpopular with my own colleagues or with Opposition Members if I believe that a serious road safety issue is at stake.

I was recently criticised by some ill-informed observers about the serious measures that we wish to introduce to ensure that monocular drivers are not allowed to drive heavy, large, dangerous and long commercial vehicles and coaches. I was described in extraordinarily disparaging terms by a number of commentators for what was seen as nannyism, bending over backwards to EC pressure and so on. To those who are aware of the real issue, that criticism was totally misguided and ill-informed, but I hope that it underlines the fact that I am quite prepared to face such criticism if I believe that action is needed to save lives.I shall go on to describe why it is clear that this is not the Bill to do that.

Mr. Flynn: The Minister is respected as a man of courage. On the issue he mentions, those hon. Members who are specialists on transport safety are entirely behind him. I am aware of the Minister's sincere support for the Bill's aims, if not for its detail. Will he give an

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Mr. Norris: No, I will not give that undertaking, and I shall say quite specifically why in my considered and serious view there is no purpose in allowing the Bill to go further. I shall explain why time spent in Committee would be totally nugatory. I know that the hon. Gentleman is kind enough to treat what I say seriously, and it gives me no pleasure whatever to say that the Bill should not proceed. It is my unfortunate responsibility to have to remind my hon. Friends who are equally enthusiastic supporters of the Bill of the reasons why I simply cannot allow it to proceed.

First, the Bill would

"Provide for the prohibition of the use on roads of motor vehicles fitted with bull bars; and for other related purposes."

Those purposes are perfectly laudable. Surprisingly, the Road Traffic Act 1988 has not been mentioned in the debate. I refer the House to part II, which is headed:

"Construction and Use of Vehicles and Equipment".

Clause 41 is headed:

"General regulation of construction, use etc."

Subsection (1) states:

"The Secretary of State may make regulations generally as to the use of motor vehicles and trailers on roads, their construction and equipment and the conditions under which they may be so used."

Subsection (2) states:

"In particular, the regulations may make provision with respect to any of the following matters--

and so on. I shall not detain the House further. In the13 minutes left to me, it is no part of what I want to say to bother to insult the intelligence of hon. Members by reading any further, but the position is straightforward. Adequate legal power is already available to Parliament and to the Secretary of State for Transport to introduce a regulation to produce the Bill's effect, subject, of course, to the fact that the hon. Gentleman is generous enough to acknowledge: in this matter, we are not dealing with the competence solely of the United Kingdom Government.

What is crucial here is the extent to which this activity is governed by European directive. Let me make a direct point on that. There are many matters, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam alluded, in which the principle of subsidiarity, which the Prime Minister first seriously articulated at Maastricht and which is such a sensible and straightforward basis on which to frame the relationship between the Community and its individual member states, is involved. She is right to suggest that, under that doctrine of subsidiarity, much should be left to the nation state.

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I remember the best of all definitions, which is that the European Commission should do only that which the nation state could not do better itself. One other principle of European Union membership is equally clear: it is a cardinal advantage to every person who manufactures in the UK and who seeks to sell not merely in the UK, but in other member states' markets throughout the European Union, to have an agreed framework of regulations that determines standards of manufacture and that therefore allows a manufacturer, once he has met those standards, to sell his product in any Community country. That is the reason why I--not necessarily noted for my massive enthusiasm for regulation from Brussels--am none the less content that, in this matter, it is proper to look to the European Community directives to establish an appropriate framework for construction and use.

Mr. Alan Williams: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Norris: Yes I will because, so far, I am grateful that the House has seen the wisdom of adopting precisely that approach.

Mr. Williams: I no longer want to intervene.

Mr. Flynn: Will the Minister therefore give way to me?

Mr. Norris indicated assent.

Mr. Flynn: If the Minister is blaming Europe for this and saying that we look to Europe, will he explain why he is ignoring the advice not only of the European Commissioner for Transport last year, but advice that has been repeated this week by the industry directorate, led by Herr Bangemann, and the transport directorate, led by Neil Kinnock, who say that we can go ahead unilaterally in three different ways to introduce a ban on our own?

Mr. Norris: I will explain that, but I should like to preface those remarks with an important clarification. Because of the general background of the debate in this country about our relationship with the Community, some commentators tend to view every issue in terms of either Britain right, Europe wrong; Britain right, Commission wrong; or, on occasions, Commission right, Britain wrong, depending on how it suits their political argument. I do not doubt that Commissioner Kinnock shares my view on this issue, is serious about it and makes his suggestions as to how the UK Government might proceed in good faith.

When I hear the hon. Member for Newport, West saying that I am blaming the Commission, I fear that not only does he do our relations with the Community no good, he distorts the nature of the extremely constructive dialogue that I have had with the Commissioner. It is important to remember--I say this to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, who said that I am not noted for allowing issues to become bogged down in red tape--that Mr. Kinnock cannot, on behalf of every member of the Community, enter into agreements that require other members' support. He has to work within a consensus framework. He and I have jointly sought to find that right framework.

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