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9.55 am
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock): I congratulate the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) on persuading you, Madam Speaker, to allow us to have this debate. It is timely--
Madam Speaker: The debate was won by ballot. It has nothing whatever to do with me.
Mr. Mackinlay: I am sorry about that. That is why I have always been polite to you, Madam Speaker. I was always living in hope that I might succeed.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on this timely debate. I am pleased to take part, as a large number of us will be squeezed out of the main debate on the IGC White Paper to be held a little later. It should be a two-day debate, not a one-day debate, but I guess that the powers that be on the two Front Benches will concoct that it will be a one-day debate. We shall see.
I approach the debate as someone who describes himself as a European. I believe in the concept of the European Union. I was keen to contest European elections long before it was fashionable in the Labour party to do so. I make that declaration. I have spoken before in the House about the need for the whole-hearted consent of Parliament and the people to any further integration or treaty arrangements. Therefore, if there was to be any significant constitutional change following the IGC,it should be put to the people by referendum.
I do not argue for a referendum as a political expedient, which is why the Prime Minister is now contemplating one in order to get himself off a dangerous hook, or indeed which was the motive of Harold Wilson. I believe that referendums are a good practice in our democratic processes. We should have referendums more often where there are constitutional changes. I would like to see legislation that would allow Madam Speaker to decide that matters that were of paramount importance relating to the constitution were subject to ratification by the people. I believe that that is what should happen with regard to this and other important matters.
I believe that the IGC will soon discover that there is limited scope for deepening the Community. That may be a good thing. Public opinion, not just in this country but elsewhere in western Europe, needs a few years--perhaps
a decade or more--to digest what has been a rapid change in the European Union. There needs to be consolidation, a bedding down, before people, Parliaments or Governments contemplate any major changes.
I shall deal with an issue that is often thrown across the Chamber, that somehow my party is federalist whereas the Conservative party is not. That is absolute rubbish. I have never heard or known of a Labour Member who is a federalist. I have noticed, however, that there are always at least two or three federalists on the Conservative Benches--I notice that they are not in their place this morning, but hon. Members will know precisely who I mean--those who are prepared to contemplate a formal European Union on a federal basis. The federalists are on the Conservative Benches. That needs to be made quite clear.
For me, a priority is not the deepening but the widening of the Community. A historic window of political opportunity is open to us--the opportunity to entrench, preserve and promote the emerging and, in some cases, delicate democracies of central Europe. I see membership of the European Union as part of that. I would give a great deal to bring Poland in particular, Hungary, the Czech Republic--the Visegrad countries--and some other states into the Union--and, for that matter, NATO--as soon as possible.
I was somewhat irritated by the Government's failure officially to mark the 50th anniversary of Winston Churchill's speech at Fulton, Missouri. It was wrong on a number of counts to abdicate that to Lady Thatcher.I mentioned the speech in the Chamber some months ago, and also asked the Foreign Office to mark the anniversary officially. Let us remind ourselves of what was said in 1945: "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an iron curtain has descended across Europe behind which we must refer to it as, the Soviet sphere."
For half a century we have been saying to the countries of central Europe, "Look over the wall. See how wonderful things are in the west." Anyone who believed our propaganda would think that the sun always shone and the rain never fell in western Europe. What happened then? Communism collapsed, the wall came down and those countries asked, not unreasonably, "Can we join the club?" We said, "Hang on a moment. There are a good many things to decide."
I do not want to minimise the hurdles that stand in the way of facilitating the entry of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and other states into the European Union, but our moral obligation is not being recognised by our Government and, perhaps, others. There is an urgent need for us to fulfil duties of which we spoke for over 50 years, and which constituted the raison d'etre for the cold war. Now we are trying to find excuses to keep those countries out, which is entirely wrong. I stand by the commitment made at Fulton: we should not now concede, instead of a Soviet, a Russian sphere of influence. There should be no Russian veto on the legitimate aspirations of free democratic countries.
Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Mackinlay:
No, I will not. Time is limited. Moreover, the hon. Lady speaks about Europe a great deal, whereas I do not speak about it very often.
Page 9 of the White Paper states that Parliament must approve any new treaty that emerges from the IGC. May I ask the Minister whether that constitutes a change of policy on the part of Her Majesty's Government? One point on which I agree with some Conservative Members is that our Parliament is always denied the right to approve treaties. We approved legislation subsequent to the Maastricht treaty rather than approving the treaty itself. Is it true that our Parliament will approve our treaty accession if a new one emerges from the IGC? If so,I welcome that, but, if not, the Minister should clearly state that we will not have such an opportunity, and that approval will be given by means of the royal prerogative. That would be entirely wrong: treaties should be approved by the legislature, as they are in other countries.
On page 15 of the White Paper, a great deal of humbug is spoken about the role of national Parliaments in relation to the business of the European Union. Having been in the House for nearly four years, I must say that I think that the way in which we scrutinise European legislation is a sham. This lovely Parliament, of which I am proud to be a Member, needs to crank up its machinery so that we can probe and criticise European legislation much more effectively. It is interesting to note that European Standing Committees A and B sit in Committee Rooms where there are no television cameras. I think that television is an important part of scrutiny. Everything is loaded against the possibility of holding a full debate and public understanding of what is going on. Parliament should be much more proactive, and should be able to initiate developments in Europe; but there is no real scope for that here.
Paragraph 30 of the White Paper, on page 15, refers to new competences, and mentions areas of competence that the Government do not think it appropriate to cede to the European Union. I shall not comment on what is said there, but I note what has been omitted. I am interested to note that there is no reference to aviation policy, airports and air traffic control. Do Her Majesty's Government concede that such matters are to be a European competence? As it happens, I think that that is inevitable and might even be a good thing, but I should like to know the position. If it is not the case, however, the Government clearly needed my assistance when preparing the White Paper, because they overlooked these matters.
The White Paper makes great play of the size of the Commission. I do not understand why that is a big issue. As I have said, I look forward to enlargement. I suspect that some small states will join the Union in the not too distant future; I accept that not every state should necessarily be able to nominate a Commissioner, but certain portfolios such as transport and foreign affairs can clearly be broken down, in the case of transport, into various forms of transport, and in the case of foreign affairs, into geographical areas. All Parliaments have junior Ministers. I know that Commissioners are not the equivalent of Ministers, but surely enough portfolios are available for each country to be able to nominate a Commissioner or an assistant Commissioner.
The White Paper makes various suggestions about how progress should be made as enlargement continues, and they are worthy of consideration. As I have said, I do not think that there is much scope for change. Existing arrangements should be allowed to bed down; by and large, qualified majority voting should remain as it is now.
Euro-sceptics have repeatedly referred to the decisions of the European Court, but the White Paper reveals that its judgments have gone against the United Kingdom on relatively few occasions. I do not say that; the Government do. We must see the position in perspective. On occasion the United Kingdom errs in its interpretation of European Union treaties, and it is in the nature of court cases that we are sometimes disappointed. You win some, you lose some.
It should be said that some recent judgments are very welcome, because they will protect workers. It should also be said that Ministers who go on about resisting the social chapter are talking absolute rot. In this regard, I probably agree with some Conservative Members. As sure as night follows day, much of what is in the social chapter will be conceded by the Government. They will huff and puff, and pretend that it is all the doing of a load of judges in Europe, but they will concede it. I welcome that; I part company with my Essex colleagues who disapprove of it. We can agree, however, that the Government's protestations of innocence are cosmetic rubbish. Inexorably changes will come about that will improve the lives of working people, increasing their capacity to shape, influence and have access to developments that affect their working lives.
The White Paper is silent on two issues. One is the size of the European Parliament. I believe that there should be a European Parliament, although I do not think that its powers should be significantly increased. It has an important role and function, but, if enlargement takes place in the Community, it is absurd that it should continue to grow. It already has 670-odd Members; I think that it is already too large. The IGC should decide to "downsize" it.
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