| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
9.11 pm
Mr. Keith Bradley (Manchester, Withington): This has generally been a thoughtful debate with interesting speeches from hon. Members on both sides of the House.
I was somewhat disappointed with the speech of the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes), who, unfortunately, has left the Chamber. He claimed that he
had read the entire debate of some three years ago.I wonder whether he read the words of the then Minister who replied, and who, commenting on my speech, said:
That clearly sums up our position. It did so then and it does today. I would like to place on record again, so that there is no confusion or selective quoting by the Secretary of State, that the Labour party, yet again, is as committed as the Government to rooting out fraud.
We welcome this opportunity to discuss the Government's first systematic attempt after 17 years in office to discover the nature of fraud and to define the extent of the problem. Labour has always been opposed to social security fraud in all its forms. It is the duty of Government to strike at abuse wherever it is found.We agree whole-heartedly with the comments in the fifth report of the Social Security Select Committee, which were quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Rutherglen (Mr. McAvoy), which said that
That is crucial. Today, the Secretary of State broadly outlined some of the measures that the Government have taken and plan to take to combat fraud. I am pleased that the Government, after 17 years, have decided to do something to ensure that taxpayers' money goes to those who most need it.
Mr. Jenkin:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
I believe that it is staggering, and I agree with what the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle(Mr. Leigh) said about it having taken so long to start to investigate, for example, the ways in which computers and computer development can be used more effectively to combat fraud. The hon. Gentleman said that he was pleased that the Government, after 17 years, had started to tackle fraud. How many proposals did the Labour party make designed to tackle fraud over the same period?
Mr. Bradley:
Obviously, a Labour Government have not been in power for 17 years. The Labour party has been in power, however, in local government throughout the country, and initiative after initiative has been taken by local government. If the Government had taken more notice of some of those initiatives they may not have taken so long to introduce their proposals in the recent past.
It is important for the Secretary of State to confirm at the outset the exact savings that will be made as a result of the anti-fraud measures over the next three years.I have repeatedly asked him to do so. I did so, for example, during the uprating debate. The Minister who responded to that debate wrote to answer the many questions that I asked, but, surprisingly, my question on savings was not answered. I have written to the Secretary of State and I have raised the matter during Social Security questions. I have still not had a reply.
Perhaps the Government are finding it difficult to identify the way in which the fraud figures are being compiled. The figures include irregularities--not
necessarily proven fraud--and notional savings in cases where investigations have found irregularities but have not led to cash being recouped. Moreover, the figures are arrived at by multiplying recorded fraudulent claims against a factor of 32. That system is based on the belief that if the fraud had not been discovered it would have taken at least 32 weeks before it would have been. Thus it may be that the Government's problem is that many of the figures that they are compiling are notional rather than hard-cash savings. These are the extrapolations at which the Government are arriving in providing estimates to the House.
When the Minister replies, it would be helpful if he could explain whether I have focused on the reasons for delay in replying to my earlier requests. I hope that he will be able tonight to give us precise figures for the year-on-year savings that he expects to make from anti-fraud measures. It would be helpful if we received that information tonight. Exactly what are the target figures that the Government are setting?
I move on to some of the work that is already under way and some of the other measures that the Government are taking to focus on social security spending on behalf of those in greatest need. We want to consider anti-fraud activities in the widest context in an effort to ensure that entitlement to benefit is recognised.
The Government's review of fraud in the social security system has had two main purposes. The first was to establish the degree of claimants' non-compliance with benefit rules. The second was to establish the reasons for fraud within the social security system. We do not argue with either of those purposes. To date, the Government have published the results of the two reviews and have used these to inform decisions on priorities for increased security within the social security system.
The first review, which was published in July 1995, focused on income support and unemployment benefit fraud. The review suggested an annual fraud level of about £1.4 billion. As a result, the Government launched their five-year programme, with the introduction of a number of measures, including the benefit payment card and a review of home visits. I mention those matters only briefly because they have been well rehearsed during the debate.
I press the Minister to give us further details about the way in which the benefit payment card system will work. The "devastating" reply that my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney) received that the security card system would be based on the private finance initiative and that it would be for the contractor to determine the terms of reference of the card, was extremely unsatisfactory. When he replies, will the Minister give us precise details of the nature of the card and how the system will work in practice?
We all accept that pensioners have played little part in any fraudulent activities. Many pensioners enjoy the use of a payment book for the receipt of pensions. It is a useful tool for them in recording benefit received and benefits that they are owed. The book is a valuable source of information for them. Will the Government ensure that, with the introduction of any benefit card, pensioners will still have the option to continue to use their own books?
Despite what the Secretary of State said in his speech, the Government have reduced the number of home visits to claimants made by Benefits Agency staff. Department of Social Security and Benefits Agency officials agree that
home visits are one of the most effective ways of detecting and deterring fraudulent benefit claims. In a parliamentary answer in January 1995, it was revealed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury said, that6.5 million home visits were made in 1979, when the Tories came to power, but that, by 1994-95, the figure had dropped to merely 500,000. The Secretary of State has promised to increase the number of home visits as part of his new anti-fraud initiatives, but by only 1 million. That nowhere near approaches the level that the Government inherited when they took office in 1979.
Home visits have a useful dual purpose. In the past, officials checked not only what fraudulent claims were being made, but that claimants were receiving all the benefits to which they were entitled. Now, however, officers are instructed to check only on fraud. Have the Government any intention of reintroducing the essential and effective dual role that home visit officers had?
At this stage, it is important to note again that the Government's changes in the social security system have led to more open fraudulent abuse. As has been stated again in the debate, that has resulted from the growing increase in the dependency on means-tested benefit. As we know, during their 17 years in office, the Government have presided over a doubling of means testing from 17 per cent. of benefits in 1978-79 to 35 per cent. in 1995-96.
Mr. Lilley:
As the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) was unable to answer on two occasions, and now that Labour Members have had time to think about this, could the hon. Gentleman answer the question: do Labour Front-Bench spokesmen propose to reduce the extent of means testing should they ever find themselves in power?
Mr. Bradley:
When we find ourselves in power, through the welfare-to-work strategy that we will introduce, we sincerely intend to reduce the number of people who are dependent on means-tested benefits. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State chunters away from a sedentary position, but the introduction of jobseeker's allowance, with the move towards means-tested benefit six months earlier, will exacerbate the problem with greater complexity. We hope that the welfare-to-work strategy will mean that people will not rely on such benefits.
Mr. Jenkin:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Bradley:
No. I have given way once to thehon. Gentleman.
Will the Minister confirm that there will be no further delay in the introduction of the jobseeker's allowance? There are persistent rumours that the computer systems that are being introduced for that benefit are not on course and that there may be some difficulties in attempting to make a smooth transition to the Government's new benefit.
Despite the people who may deliberately claim benefit fraudulently, it is important always to stress that the vast majority of benefit claimants are--and I use the words of the Secretary of State:
Three years ago, when we first debated this subject,I referred to a report by the Low Pay Unit entitled "Policing the Workshy", which pointed out that perhaps one of the greatest impediments to seeking work is that people must fill in so many forms and complete so many interview references showing that they are seeking work. Individual abuses often occur because of ignorance or mistakes in filling in all those forms. Social security officers have a duty to give claimants the maximum help to ensure that they claim correctly. More work should be done to simplify claim forms, which are still too complex for many people. Staff training, and staff sensitivity in the handling of claimants, are also essential to ensure that those who fill in the forms do not encounter difficulties.
That leads me to the subject of the Government's plan to reduce the running costs budget by 25 per cent. That would make the system less rather than more fraud-proof. As we have heard, one of the main ways of achieving savings that the Secretary of State is currently considering is self-assessment of eligibility. If that were introduced, the onus would be on claimants to prove their entitlement to benefit: they would be responsible for knowing which documents they should produce to prove their entitlement.
The analogy of applying for a passport has been used. The Passport Agency does not help people to prove their entitlement to passports; it merely approves or rejects their applications. Applying for a state benefit, however, is a vastly more complicated process. A wealth of factors are relevant--for instance, whether claimants have savings, whether they are claiming other benefits and whether other people are living with them.
As we have heard, fraudsters will not find self-assessment a problem, but pensioners, the disabled and many other vulnerable groups may find it much harder to prove their entitlement. It is they who will suffer if the Government's plan is implemented. If the Government were serious about fighting fraud, they would not be cutting running costs in that way. I hope that the Minister will assure us that they will not do so: such action would give the green light to fraudsters throughout the country.
The other side of the coin, which is equally important, is take-up of and entitlement to benefit. When attempting to root out fraud, the Government should apply the same effort and commitment to ensuring that those who are eligible for benefit receive their entitlement. According to a report in The Guardian on 1 March this year, the Benefits Agency plans to reduce some of its help for those claiming benefit: for instance, it proposes reductions in telephone advice lines and "benefit buses". If that is true, it is extremely worrying. We should be building up such work rather than cutting it. I hope that the Minister will confirm that such cuts are not envisaged as part of the attempt to reduce running costs by 25 per cent.
Pensioners are an obvious group of people entitled to benefit. As I have said, they are one of the groups least likely to commit fraud, but they are also the least likely group to take up their entitlement to benefit.DSS estimates show that up to a third of pensioners entitled to income support are not receiving it. Between £840 million and £1.2 billion is unclaimed by pensioners in a single year, and about 1 million pensioners--perhaps more--are missing out altogether. I hope that the Government will tell us tonight that they will launch new publicity drives, and support the excellent work of welfare
rights officers in local authorities throughout the country who take up campaigns and help people, efficiently and effectively, to claim the money to which they are entitled.
The Government's second review--the review of the housing benefit and council tax benefit system--suggests that about £730 million is lost through fraud, and a further £110 million through error. As we have been told, in April the Government will launch a four-point plan to combat housing benefit fraud; but, as the Secretary of State said, the £10 million originally allocated to local authorities as "challenge money" has already fallen to £8 million. Local authorities have subsequently discovered that £5 million of that total was previously allocated as part of the Government's subsidy to them for fraud work that was already under way, leaving a new total of merely£3 million for work that is considered to be essential to combat fraud. Will the Minister confirm that that is the case in his winding-up speech?
"The Opposition spokesman has been equally determined to show that the Labour party is as rigorous about fraud and abuse asit is about ensuring that everyone gets his just deserts."--[Official Report, 16 July 1993; Vol. 228, c. 1296.]
"anti-fraud activities are an integral part of ensuring that social security spending goes to those who need it most."
"as honest as the day is long."--[Official Report, 18 January 1993; Vol. 217, c. 9.]
5 Mar 1996 : Column 236
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |