| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Thompson: I have no idea where Matthew Parris is. The sketch writers are here only for the first hour or so of the day and they then go off to dinner or to do whatever else they do. They certainly lead a comfortable life. Matthew Parris is probably the best sketch writer, yet even he often bases his sketches these days on matters that have nothing to do with what has taken place in the Chamber. I could expand on that but I shall not do so, you will be relieved to hear, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is an important issue and I shall return to the subject of Hansard and its circulation at a later date.
Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan): I am sponsored by the printers union, the Graphical, Paper and Media Union, and it is perhaps appropriate that I should deal almost exclusively with that aspect of the matter.
One problem with the reporting of Parliament concerns the technical difficulties that now weigh heavily on newspapers, because of the deadlines that they have to meet, so that the presses can start rolling at a particular time. That sort of problem does not arise with HMSO. The arrangements that have been arrived at between the work force, Hansard and those in this House who pay the bills, as it were, mean that the service is carried out in a unique way.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) mentioned a problem that those of us who sit on Standing Committees encounter from time to time: the non-availability of papers. I am assured by my friends who work on the printing presses that they would be more than happy to be able to provide that service earlier for the convenience of the House. It is the constraints that have been imposed on them over a period of time that prevent them from doing so.
It is unfortunate that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has left, because I was going to pay him something of a compliment. He is well known on both sides of the House as a courteous and solicitous man. In the past,
I have had to cross swords with him on many occasions when he represented other Departments and I have always found him to be genuinely concerned. As a consequence, he is sometimes a wee bit thin-skinned and takes it all out when the barbarian hordes in the Opposition try to rough him up a bit. Although his answers this evening have been polite and courteous, they have not been satisfactory. He has almost been honest enough to admit that, in so far as he has said that he cannot give guarantees on the number of jobs after the sale of the business or what the working conditions will be.
We have given the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster four or five days' notice, but he seems to misunderstand the nature of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) referred to the criteria by which a change in circumstances may take place. When ownership changes, some three months' notice has to be given before the TUPE regulations can be altered. I think that the figure is 90 days, so it is nearly 14 weeks. That is the point at which negotiations start.
We know that such negotiations would not necessarily involve the preservation of the status quo. Indeed, there would be no point in having negotiations or giving notice if there was not going to be a change. We also know that when ownership changes, new owners are often ambitious enough to notice areas of profitability or loss that they would like to promote or cut out. As a consequence, jobs may go and factories may be moved about the country.
As a Scotsman, I remember that it was only 10 years ago that Mr. Ernest Saunders came to Edinburgh and told everyone that the Distillers company headquarters, which was then located in the city, would remain there and that Guinness, having taken over Distillers, would locate its business in Edinburgh. That may have been an early sign of the Alzheimer's disease that apparently afflicted Mr. Saunders later and from which he miraculously recovered.
I do not suggest that the people who take over HMSO if the privatisation goes through will behave as Mr. Saunders did, but unless something that will last for a long time is written into the terms of the sale, the chances of the headquarters remaining in Norwich are, to say the least, difficult. I do not say that because I wish anything to happen to the headquarters in Norwich. As one who represents a Scottish constituency, I know the importance of breaking the stranglehold of London on all business and commercial life. One does not have to be in favour of devolution as much as the Government are opposed to it--or dubious about it, like my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell)--to recognise that we need a diversity of not only ownership but location of ownership across the country. I am dubious about any assurances that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster might try to give us on the matter.
Hon. Members have continually returned to the point that it is somehow necessary to change ownership because the business is contracting, so there has to be some sort of commercial freedom that has hitherto been unavailable. Such a lack of commercial freedom did not restrict British Rail, prior to the threats of privatisation, from being in competition with companies to deliver parcels or, indeed, bodies. No competition was allowed in respect of the railway lines, but there was competition in respect of parcels. There is also the Post Office, which offers a range
of services in the public sector, enters into competition with private sector companies and goes after commercial contracts with private businesses.
I do not understand why HMSO, in its myriad activities, cannot, for example, bid to provide local authorities with papers and services or offer to print examination papers for examination boards. If it can produce cheques for giros, why not for banks? Why could it not be allowed to print bank notes? Some of those activities might well require investment, but nobody suggests that the sizeable investment that HMSO has had to undergo over the past 15 years came from the City or broke the Treasury rules. It was generated from within the business. I cannot see why the rules that apply to some bodies that operate in the public sector should be denied to HMSO. I find the Government's blinkered attitude strange.
It is equally strange that when, at this late stage of a Parliament, the Government are trying to keep the privatisation fires burning, this is the best that they can get away with. The criteria for privatisation now are not how much money they can get or the scale of the operation; they are whether it can be achieved without legislation. That is the case with the privatisation of the nuclear industry and with that of HMSO. Both are businesses which have operated extremely efficiently and which, of their sort, could be classed as world leaders, but both are to be sold off.
We do not know what the sum involved will be yet. We shall find out, doubtless, in due course. We shall want to know whether the quality of service that the House and the country receive will be sustained. It is a service that enables people to go to HMSO retail outlets and purchase papers at the same time across the country. It publishes papers of a sensitivity that can sometimes be of tremendous commercial advantage to individuals. That service is carried out by people who are not especially well paid and who will not themselves gain from the privatisation. Those people have committed themselves to the service of the community. I emphasise the point that the hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson) made--an ethic of public service still prevails and has its adherents.
Some of the people of whom we have been speaking, such as those who are recipients of non-contributory pension schemes, may begin to look at the matter differently if they are required to pay 6 per cent. or 9 per cent. of their salaries towards the pension fund, which will by and large, but not necessarily, just about meet present pension requirements. That is where the Minister's lack of clarity throws into doubt the sincerity of the whole operation. Between Thursday and today, the Government's position has shifted. On Thursday, HMSO was to be sold off in its entirety; tonight, the Minister said that he is willing to look at the printing and publishing business being dealt with separately. If the printing and publishing business is separate, I am not sure whether the headquarters at Norwich could survive.
Mr. Patrick Thompson:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way because I wanted to speak on that point, but time did not permit me to do so. It was also raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack). I, too, have my doubts about the separation of the two sides of the business, although I realise that this is a parliamentary rather than
Mr. O'Neill:
Other hon. Members have raised the issue and will continue to do so.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |