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Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North): The Secretary of State's quite extraordinary inability to answer
the questions asked by my hon. Friends the Members for York (Mr. Bayley), for Doncaster, North (Mr. Hughes) and for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) and by the hon. Member for North Devon (Mr. Harvey) reveals the fraudulence of his statement. Does he not understand that the courts have told him that it is unlawful to propose passenger service requirements that are 20, 30, 50 or 100 per cent. below the existing timetable? He cannot tell the House that the import of his new guidelines is that it will be impossible to present passenger service requirements at the same unsatisfactory levels. Will he answer my hon. Friends' question about whether the door is still open for the kind of passenger service requirement that the courts were concerned with? Will he recognise that this will be remembered as the day that the passenger service requirement was redefined as a "core service level"-- three weasel words that will be understood throughout the country even if they are not understood by the right hon. Gentleman's Back Benchers.
The Secretary of State also evaded the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike). Will he say clearly whether, when the ballyhoo about the franchises has died down, it will be open to franchisees to come back and demand either a reduction in service or more money from the franchising director as long at the Tories are in office?
Sir George Young:
I invite the hon. Gentleman to read my statement again. I made it clear that I was going beyond the steps necessary to meet the Court of Appeal's decision. I hope that I gave him some reassurance that the timetable was not the same as the PSR.
The approach that the franchising director has adopted was described by the Court of Appeal as
The important thing is to move this debate on from the theoretical to the practical to enable the franchising director to award franchises and to enable people to see the quality and frequency of service that is being offered. People will judge for themselves. I suspect that, in 18 months' time, or whenever the election is, Opposition Members will fight shy of saying, "We are going to cancel all this and give it back to British Rail." When we hit an election, when the services are up and running, people will find that they are popular and better, and the Labour party, as it has done before, will do a U-turn.
Order for Second Reading read.
Question, That the Bill be now read a Second time, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 54 (Consolidated Fund Bills), and agreed to.
Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Order for Third Reading read.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Jeremy Hanley):
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I explained at Second Reading that the Bill was an enabling measure that will allow the Government to offer a package of benefits to certain overseas Hong Kong officers. In particular, we propose to put in place schemes, by Order in Council, to pay officers compensation for loss of their career prospects, and to provide Hong Kong overseas pensioners with a measure of protection for the sterling value of their pensions. Officers would be allowed to retire prematurely before 30 June 1997 and be entitled to resettlement help.
I am grateful to hon. Members who served on the Standing Committee that examined the Bill. All hon. Members who spoke recognised the contribution that Hong Kong overseas officers have made to Hong Kong's success, and that they should receive benefits similar to those provided to their predecessors in 42 former British dependent territories. It is gratifying that no hon. Member questioned the Bill's object and I am especially grateful for the serious and responsible speeches made by the hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett), and for the detailed study of the matter by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), who kindly notified us that he was monitoring elections elsewhere, but that he had no questions to raise.
The Bill passed through Committee unamended and I do not have any Government amendments to propose. I did, however, give a ministerial undertaking in Committee to provide the House with two reports, which would set out the sort of resettlement provided to officers who decided to retire prematurely and the expenditure on the various schemes. They would also provide an assessment of the impact of early retirements on the Hong Kong civil service. The first report will be presented to the House before 1 January 1997, and a second before 30 June 1997.
I commend the Bill to the House.
Mr. Derek Fatchett (Leeds, Central):
Throughout the deliberations on this proposed legislation, the Labour party has backed the Government's position and its reasons have always been clear. First, the Bill ends the uncertainty faced by members of the overseas civil service. There has been a protracted negotiation period and I think that all the civil servants are delighted that that process has been completed and that the Bill is before us. Secondly, the Minister rightly says that the scheme is in line with 42 other schemes, which is why we also support the proposal, although conditions and circumstances in Hong Kong differ from those in the other 42 cases. Clearly, it is correct that the treatment of overseas civil servants in Hong Kong should be similar to that of civil servants in all the other cases. Thirdly, the Bill gave us an opportunity to give our thanks to the
Like the Minister, I welcome the way in which the Committee dealt with the issues. As the Minister said, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) is not able to be with us today. He is monitoring elections in a much warmer climate and I am sure that he is doing that job with his usual commitment to detail. It was because of him that we had much more detailed information about how the pension scheme would work and the sterling guarantee. On behalf of all Committee members, I thank him for that.
I thank the Minister for his concession, if I may use that word, to us in Committee and for his promise this evening to make two reports available in the run-up to 1997. That will be welcomed by all hon. Members because it will give us the opportunity to continue to monitor the scheme and how it works.
I put on record the fact that we had a good debate in Committee about the nature of the sterling guarantee. I think that all of us recognised that there were anxieties about that. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham voted for an amendment that tried to change the nature of the sterling guarantee, but I was much more minded--I think this is the Labour party's official view--by the argument that these discussions had been going on for some time, that there had been a negotiation process and that the people directly involved in those negotiations were happy with the proposals that had been made. They did not view them necessarily as ideal, but negotiations are always of that description and Ian Strachan, on behalf of the overseas civil servants, has made it clear that that was the best offer in town and that it was one that they were prepared to accept.
It is important to stress again that the guarantee is based on a pessimistic scenario, that it is in all our interests-- not only all the political parties represented in the House but the people living and working in Hong Kong--that that scenario is never realised in practice and that we need to take a much more optimistic view of the way in which the system works.
I join the Minister in the words that he uttered at the end of his short speech: I put on record again our thanks to the people who have worked in the overseas civil service and to those who have worked for the Hong Kong Government. The success of Hong Kong, economically and politically, has depended greatly on the integrity and competence of those who have worked for the Hong Kong civil service. It is not without surprise that one hears time and again the comment that the rule of law, economic success and the civil service go hand in glove in Hong Kong. The Bill has given all hon. Members an opportunity to put on record our gratitude and our thanks, and the fact that we have a civilised rule of law that has operated so effectively in Hong Kong. One hopes that it will continue to operate so effectively after 1997.
"an intelligible and in no way irrational approach."
It is a broad approach that was supported by the Select Committee. The Court of Appeal pointed out that it was open to the Secretary of State to amend the instruction. I have told the House that that is what I propose to do.
Hong Kong (Overseas Public Servants) Bill
5.11 pm
5.13 pm
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