| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
6.20 pm
Mr. Ingram: With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall not speak for long because the Minister raised many points earlier and I feel that the House will benefit from what he says in reply. This has been an important and informative debate; all who have participated will probably leave the Chamber with more knowledge than they had initially. The same will apply outside the House.
The Minister said that the Royal Society of Chemistry had not provided him with an important briefing document. I have checked with the society, which confirmed that two copies of the document were given to his Department yesterday. I hope that that will be placed on the record, and I am sure that the Minister will correct any omission by his Department. The society should not be criticised.
I do not intend to deal with all the points that have been made, but the Minister asked for suggestions on how the Bill could be improved. We are trying to ensure its fairly speedy passage, but that does not mean that we should ignore the need for amendment. The Minister has been asked specific questions about the way in which the annual report will be presented to Parliament--for instance, will that be statutory? He has also been asked a number of questions about the way in which the regulations will be handled--will they be dealt with by the affirmative or negative resolution procedure?--and about the need for an advisory body, among other related matters. All those issues would require amendments to the Bill.
I am prepared to talk to the Minister with the aim of ensuring that the amendments are suitable, and that the Bill is eventually worded in the best possible way. The Minister said that he had not been contacted by an Opposition spokesman during the lengthy period since the Bill's first appearance, or since Britain signed the convention three years ago; I am now making an offer to him. If he wants co-operation on the amendments necessary to deal with the important points that have been raised today, I shall be happy to co-operate with him.
Mr. Oppenheim:
With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is clear that, in general, the Bill enjoys the whole-hearted support of hon. Members on both sides of the House. That was demonstrated by the enlightening and helpful speeches that we have heard.
I also appreciated the spirit of the comments made by the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram). In the same spirit, I shall not respond in detail to his comments about British manufacturing industry. He paid tribute to the chemical industry for having notched up a large manufacturing surplus; I could name other industries that have been transformed in the past 15 years, but, in deference to the spirit of consensus that is so uncharacteristic of my performances at the Dispatch Box, I shall not do so. Instead, I shall do my best to respond to the serious issues that have been raised.
First, have we been late in presenting the legislation?
The convention is extremely complex, and the Department of Trade and Industry has--rightly-- consulted widely. We have had to ensure that the convention is implemented effectively and fully; we have also had the conflicting duty of trying to minimise the burdens on business. I think that hon. Members on both
sides of the House recognise that necessity, and that we have achieved our aim without imposing any short cuts. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) commented on that. The convention is complex, and we must translate it into a complex Bill; we consider it better to get the legislation right than to rush it.
The comments of the hon. Member for East Kilbride struck me as a little unfair. On the one hand, he said that we had been slow in presenting the Bill to Parliament, but on the other he said that we were rushing things. In fact, we have taken our time. We began the consultation process a year ago, and about three months ago we issued draft legislation. That has not always happened. I feel that there has been a reasonable amount of time for suggestions to be made. Moreover, I am proud to say that we are in the first group of countries that will implement the convention. The hon. Gentleman may say that we are a bit slow, but other countries have had even more problems than we have in implementing it. I feel that I should at least respond to some of the gratuitous comments that have been flung at my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, who is not here to defend himself.
Mr. Dalyell:
The Minister speaks of gratuitous comments. It was his mother who, on a famous occasion in May 1982, told me in front of a full House that I was treasonable--but I shall not pursue that.
I acknowledge the need to get the legislation right, but how are industry and others who will be affected to be told about the Bill's provisions? There is a communications problem, is there not?
Mr. Oppenheim:
I shall deal with that point, which I consider valid. Let me say in passing that, in my 39 years, I have found that my mother is usually right--although she may have been wrong in the case of the hon. Gentleman.
A number of hon. Members raised an important issue. One of them was my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury, who indeed taught me economics, but at O-level rather than A-level. It is a minor point, of course. I do not think that I took the examination in the end; I think that I took Latin instead. These are not important issues, however. All that need be said is that I benefited enormously from my hon. Friend's teaching. I passed all my examinations; it is just that I may not have taken that particular subject. But I digress, and I shall risk being out of order if I continue.
Our relationship with Porton Down is enormously important. It is connected with the question of where the DTI takes advice on the whole issue of chemical weapons. The Department tends to take such advice from the widest possible range of advisers, but will rely particularly on Porton Down, the advice of which has already proved invaluable. It is an enormous, almost unique centre of expertise in the United Kingdom's defence against chemical weapons, and we shall draw fully on its abilities. We feel, however, that simply to set up a committee of experts may be limiting. We are open to other points of view, but we believe that we should draw as fully as possible on the widest range of expertise that exists in this country. Porton Down will play a valuable part in that.
The issue of whether new chemicals and newly developed chemical weapons fall within the convention has been raised. That is another area in which Porton Down will be invaluable. The convention and the
legislation operate not merely against specific chemicals but against chemical weapons per se. Any development of new chemical weapons, therefore, will come within the bounds of the convention and the legislation, added to which there is scope, if necessary, to make rapid changes to the convention and the legislation.
The hon. Member for East Kilbride and other hon. Members spoke about export controls. The Bill makes no specific provision for export and import controls but it bans chemical weapons whether people are making them, trading in them or using them, because we intend that the existing licensing system for import and export controls should apply. The departmental responsibility in this area is perfectly clear. The President of the Board of Trade is ultimately responsible for issuing export licences. He has the final decision although, of course, he always consults the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office before making any decisions. That is why there is no specific reference in the legislation to export controls.
Mr. Ingram:
I do not want to cause delay but I should like to ask a question about export controls. If the DTI, as the national authority, identified that a chemical was being exported which could be used for weapons, who would have the ultimate authority? Would the judgment be made on the basis of trade by the DTI as the national authority in relation to the convention?
Mr. Oppenheim:
First, the DTI would not licence the export of any chemical weapon, and it would also fall within the terms of the legislation that governs the convention because the convention prevents us from trading in chemical weapons. Such export would be illegal on both grounds and a licence would not be issued. In any case, the request would fall within the terms of the convention and one hopes that that would be picked up long before anyone applied for an export licence. It is unlikely that anyone would apply for a licence for chemical weapons when such weapons are illegal. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) mentioned the appeals procedure. The Bill has an appeals procedure as part of the licensing arrangements and it applies to schedule 1 chemicals that do not have to be licensed. I shall come to that matter. We intend to model the appeals procedure on the one that is soon to be introduced under the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. I assure hon. Members that the appeals procedure would include a committee consisting of those with sufficient expertise to advise on licensing matters.
The issue of whether there are short cuts on verification was mentioned. I assure the House that the preparatory commission process has not led to any weakening of the convention's verification procedures. United Kingdom experts have worked extremely hard and closely with officials to maintain the integrity of the convention, and our officials will continue to do so.
The hon. Member for East Kilbride and others were concerned about whether clause 23 was unnecessarily draconian. We looked carefully at that possibility and it concerned me when I looked at the proposed legislation. The first problem is that the chemical industry is large, diverse and scattered. Secondly, there is no single list of
firms that might produce or use scheduled chemicals. Thirdly, the convention clearly requires the UK to produce a complete declaration of scheduled chemicals and not just an approximate list. The Department needs to assemble a complete list to fulfil our obligations under the convention. That is why clause 23 is relatively draconian and why, as a last resort, we also need criminal sanctions.
International experience in this area shows that without criminal sanctions there can be a low response. We carefully considered the implications of clause 23 and we are prepared to consider them further, but we think that they are essential. That goes to the issue of regulation, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury. By instinct we are not regulators and want regulation only when it is absolutely necessary. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that this area is absolutely black and white in terms of where the Government need to regulate. We are trying to make sure that we regulate properly. Clause 23 is necessary but if hon. Members are worried about it we shall listen to their concerns.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |