House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Oct 1995

Middle East

10. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Britain's contribution to the middle east peace process. [36861]

Mr. Hanley: We are a major donor to the Palestinian people, providing £83 million over three years. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said earlier, Britain will be making a substantial contribution to the EU-organised observation of the Palestinian elections.

Mr. Townsend: During my right hon. Friend's visit to the middle east, and that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, will they be raising the plight of the dispersed Palestinians who are not on the west bank but in other countries in the region? Is it not wholly unsatisfactory that the future of those Palestinians should depend on talks between the PLO and the Israeli Government? Will my right hon. Friend make it clear that he recognises the Government's responsibility, as a member of the United Nations, to look after displaced people wherever they may be?

Mr. Hanley: I agree with my hon. Friend that that is an extremely important matter and I undertake to do what he asks.

Mr. Norman Hogg: When the Under-Secretary and the Foreign Secretary visit the middle east, they will presumably meet PLO representatives. Will the Minister tell us whom they will be meeting and where they will be meeting them?

Mr. Hanley: I am both pleased and sorry to correct the hon. Gentleman. Actually I am a Minister of State. Given the direction of my recent career, it may be only a matter of time before I am an Under- Secretary.

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My right hon. and learned Friend and I will both be making visits to the region in the near future. I can assure him that we shall be meeting as many of the relevant people as possible to make progress in this most important matter.

Former Yugoslavia

11. Mr. Ainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current situation in former Yugoslavia. [38663]

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: Although skirmishing has continued in north- west Bosnia, the situation is generally much quieter following the ceasefire which came into effect on 12 October. We remain concerned about the continuing tense situation in eastern Slavonia.

Mr. Ainger: Is the Minister aware of the claims that are made in European newspapers that United States intelligence services knew about three weeks before Srebrenica was overrun that that would take place? Is he further aware that the same intelligence services were tapping the phones of Generals Mladic and Pericic, the chiefs of staff of the Serbian army? Is he also aware that that information was not passed on to the United Nations, to UNPROFOR or to any of the NATO allies, including the Dutch, who were guarding the enclave? Does he realise that, as a result, some 8,000 Muslim men have disappeared, many presumed murdered? Will he now institute an inquiry into those claims? If they are proved to be true, what action will he take?

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I do not for a moment believe that what the hon. Gentleman alleges is true. Clearly, I am not going to comment on intelligence matters but, with regard to the fall of Srebrenica, I am sure that it was regretted as much by our United States allies as by ourselves.

Kashmir

12. Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he intends to pay an official visit to India to discuss Kashmir. [36864]

Mr. Hanley: My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary hopes to find an early opportunity to visit India. I was pleased to visit India earlier this month and discussed Kashmir and a wide range of other issues with members of the Indian Government.

Mr. Lidington: Will the Government continue to bring home to the Indian Government the concern still felt in this country about continuing reports of human rights abuses by the Indian armed forces in Kashmir? Will they impress on the authorities in New Delhi that the best thing for all involved would be for such allegations to be investigated by impartial and independent observers and for the Indian Government to give permission for such observers to go to Kashmir?

Mr. Hanley: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. We certainly continue to be concerned about human rights in Kashmir and we have regularly raised our concerns with the Indian Government. Indeed, I did so only two weeks ago. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister met the Indian Prime Minister earlier this week. We welcome

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the policy of openness increasingly adopted by the Indian Government. The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights visited Kashmir in early May. The International Committee of the Red Cross was recently granted permission to operate in Kashmir and began its initial work on 12 October.

Mr. Corbett: Will the Minister confirm that India has established an independent human rights commission and that it is the British Government's policy to support the Indian Government's efforts to persuade all parties in Kashmir and Jammu to take part, at the earliest possible time consistent with security, in elections?

Mr. Hanley: I can certainly confirm what the hon. Gentleman said. I can best summarise by saying that we believe that the best way forward for Kashmir involves three main steps. The first is simultaneous progress on dialogue between India and Pakistan as provided for under the 1972 Simla agreement. Without dialogue, there can be no progress. The second is improvement in human rights in Kashmir and a genuine political process there. The third is a clear cessation of external support for violence in Kashmir.

Mr. Jessel: On that question of external support for violence, is my right hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett), myself and four other Members of the House a year ago were shown in Kashmir a cache of Russian arms which must have got through from Pakistan to the militants in Kashmir and could not have come by any other route? Does he mean that?

Mr. Hanley: I have said repeatedly to those whom I have met in recent months that we urge the need for an end to any external support for militants in Kashmir. External support serves only to fuel the problem.

East Timor

13. Mr. Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Government of Indonesia concerning their occupation of East Timor; and if he will make a statement. [36865]

Mr. Hanley: We regularly raise the question of East Timor, including human rights concerns, with the Indonesians at ministerial and official level.

Mr. Corbyn: I am pleased to hear that the Minister does raise the matter with Indonesian officials. I hope that he takes the time to tell them that since their illegal occupation of East Timor in 1974, 200,000 people have been killed in what can only be called genocide against the Timorese people, but the British Government's so-called requests to cease such human rights violations have had no effect whatsoever principally--I suspect--because the Government are happy to supply virtually any guns or weapons, which can be used to kill people in East Timor, that the Indonesians wish to buy, and to promote trade with that country. Does he not realise that the Indonesian Government will move only if we cut off the supply of arms and consider at least some form of economic sanctions against them until they cease this brutal occupation of a country, their abuse of human rights and the killing of Timorese people?

Mr. Hanley: We remain concerned about reports of continuing human rights abuses in Indonesia and in East

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Timor. We certainly let the Indonesian Government know of our concerns and they are well aware that their actions are in the world's limelight. As for arm sales, all sovereign states enjoy the right, under article 51 of the UN charter, to their own self-defence. Applications to export UK defence equipment are scrutinised against established criteria and internationally agreed guidelines. We do not allow the export of arms and equipment which is likely to be used for internal repression in Indonesia or East Timor.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I rise as an officer of the all-party British-Indonesian parliamentary group. Does my right hon. Friend accept that, in fact, overall it benefits East Timor to be part of--perhaps--the fifth largest country in the world? Although I accept the point made by the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) that there have been human rights abuses and atrocities in Timor, the very constructive contact that the Government have with the President and Government of Indonesia is very much to the benefit of the people of East Timor, and must be continued. Indonesia is an important country, in trade, political and cultural terms, going back hundreds of years, for the United Kingdom.

Mr. Hanley: We certainly urge the Indonesian Government to discuss the matter with the East Timorese. We have no evidence that UK-supplied equipment has been used for internal oppression in Indonesia or in East Timor. If the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) has any evidence of it, I would willingly receive it. However, to my hon. Friend I say that, indeed, relationships are good and what he said was quite right.

Mrs. Clwyd: As the Minister is so concerned about human rights in East Timor, why do the British Government fund the training of paramilitary police, who go on to carry out human rights abuses in East Timor? Why are the Government funding a transmigration project which is moving people from Indonesia into East Timor? Why are they funding a short-wave transmitter project, which will be used to broadcast the propaganda of the Indonesian Government? Does he think that the Government will be in the same position as they were over the Pergau dam? While the National Audit Office is carrying out its survey into the allegations that I have made--that Government aid is being used illegally in Indonesia--can he stand at the Dispatch Box and tell us that he has every confidence that that aid is being used legally?

Mr. Hanley: The NAO, as the hon. Lady knows, is examining the question of aid to Indonesia. The review began in September and we await the result with great interest. The projects through which we contribute to the economic and social benefit of Indonesia, where 27 million people live below the poverty line despite some good economic progress, are important to those people. UK-funded projects have nothing whatever to do with any arms sales. The hon. Lady's allegations are being examined by the NAO.

Mr. Robert Banks: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the way forward surely is for a settlement to be achieved by bringing all the sides together, including representatives of Portugal, to solve the problem of East Timor? Does he further agree that the Indonesian Government have spent a great deal of money on investment in East Timor and achieved a great deal for

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the people and the infrastructure? Given that there would be guarantees of religious freedom and special status, surely the long-term future and happiness of the people of East Timor would be better served by it remaining part of Indonesia?

Mr. Hanley: We continue to believe that dialogue between Portugal and Indonesia under the United Nations Secretary-General's auspices offers the best chance of finding a just, comprehensive and internationally acceptable settlement to the question of East Timor. The next meeting will be held in London in January 1996. I hope that the discussions will deal with substantive issues such as a reduction in the military presence and devolution. We also welcome the intra-East Timorese talks in Austria. I hope that those talks will continue and lead to progress. [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) is trying to ask a question and he must be heard.

Sir Russell Johnston: Madam Deputy Speaker--

Madam Speaker: Order. That will not do at all.

Sir Russell Johnston: What can I say, Madam Speaker? I am sorry. A wee while ago, the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) chided the Foreign Secretary for failing to support the Australian Prime Minister in his condemnation of French nuclear tests. Does the Minister think that the Australian Prime Minister's position on the high moral ground has been affected by his recent statements absolving the Indonesian Government of any wrongdoing in East Timor? Has the Minister had any discussions with the Australian Prime Minister on that extraordinary position, which runs against all the evidence that we have?

Mr. Hanley: The issue was not raised when I met the Australian Prime Minister in Papua New Guinea recently. Therefore, I have nothing to say on the matter.

Iraq

14. Lady Olga Maitland: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are the latest developments regarding Iraq and compliance with United Nation resolutions on the release of Kuwaiti prisoners of war and missing persons. [36866]

Mr. Rifkind: At the September review of the United Nations sanctions, the Security Council stressed the need for Iraq to comply with all its UN obligations, including that on the Kuwait missing persons. We have stressed that Iraq must produce substantive new information on missing persons and on prisoners of war. We shall keep up the pressure.

Lady Olga Maitland: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his reply. Does he agree that it is outrageous that, five years after the liberation of Kuwait, the Iraqis are still defying United Nations resolutions aimed at securing the release of its prisoners of war? Further, has he noted that yesterday's border meeting between the Kuwaitis and the Iraqis has produced no progress and not one prisoner has been named to be released? Will my right hon. and learned Friend please bear in mind the distress of the Kuwaiti people and give the matter priority, while considering the wider issue of

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news of the enormous chemical and biological weapons stockpile, which has now been revealed to the world following the defection of Mr. Hussein Kamil? I understand that there is sufficient anthrax to destroy the world's population five times over.

Mr. Rifkind: We share my hon. Friend's concern about the more than 600 missing persons. As she said, the Iraqis have not yet provided any satisfactory information as to what might have happened to them. I deeply agree with my hon. Friend that the revelations in recent weeks about the development of anthrax as a weapon of mass destruction by the regime of Saddam Hussein is a clear demonstration of the brutality and irresponsibility of the regime that still rules in that country. It explains why sanctions are still necessary until the resolutions of the United Nations have been fully complied with.

Mr. Gunnell: Given the nature of the use of the ballot box in Iraq recently, does the Foreign Secretary agree that bringing genuine democratic processes into the region would place pressure on that regime? Does he agree that that should be started by the British Government giving full backing to the early calling of Palestinian elections to the national assembly?

Mr. Rifkind: It is clear that the recent so-called referendum in Iraq was a farce. It has been widely recognised as such. I believe that there is serious intent to have genuine and proper Palestinian elections. An invitation has been made to send external observers and the United Kingdom, along with many other countries, will do so. We look forward to that being an important step in the right direction in the development of the Palestinian entity.

Intergovernmental Conference

15. Mr. Win Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about progress in the reflections group in preparation for the European Union intergovernmental conference in 1996. [36867]

Mr. David Davis: There have been 10 meetings so far of the study group preparing for the intergovernmental conference. The chairman of the group, Mr. Westendorp, issued an interim report, on his own authority, on 1 September, which has been placed in the Library of the House. The group is due to present its final report to the Madrid European Council in December.

Mr. Griffiths: The Minister will have heard the Secretary of State, in reply to the second question this afternoon, reiterate the Government's commitment to openness in the European Union. In the light of that commitment, will he now reiterate the Government's support for the Swedish Government's decision to publish papers previously kept secret in Brussels? Will he welcome the decision of the European Court of Justice in the case of The Guardian and the publication of Council minutes, and will he give us a commitment that in future the Council of Ministers, being the only legislature in the democratic world that meets in secret, will meet in public?

Mr. Davis: The British have been in the lead in many areas of transparency within the Union. The fact that we publish our minute statements, our votes and the lines that we take in each of the Councils that we attend acts as an

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exemplar in this. Holding Councils in public would have the effect of driving negotiations into the corridor, and that would not be in the interests of transparency.

Mr. Duncan Smith: Did my hon. Friend notice the other day that Chancellor Kohl made it quite clear, in robust and forthright language, that unless, at the IGC, Europe moved in his direction with regard to having a single defence policy by 1999, there would be a threat of war and difficult dislocations across Europe? Did my hon. Friend further notice that, in the course of that, the Commission president did not chastise Chancellor Khol for the nature of his language? Will my hon. Friend now take the opportunity to join me in so chastising him?

Mr. Davis: We will take a robust line in ensuring that our particular view on defence in Europe will be adhered to.

Ms Eagle: Can the Minister explain the conundrum between the Government's position in support of enlargement, which requires as an absolute first step the basic reform of the common agricultural policy, and their position on the veto? Is it possible to reform the CAP without affecting the veto when it is clear that Germany and other nations will not allow such reforms to take place? Therefore, how can the hon. Gentleman possibly expect enlargement to be a reality?

Mr. Davis: Very large areas of the CAP are already decided by qualified majority voting.

Brazil

16. Mr. Jacques Arnold: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Britain's relations with Brazil. [36868]

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I am delighted to be able to tell my hon. Friend that our relations with Brazil are excellent.

Mr. Arnold: In developing the theme of transatlantic co-operation, will my hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of Brazil, one of the largest of the Atlantic nations with a GDP greater than that of Spain, and a country in which we take a considerable amount of interest? In taking forward discussions with Brazil, will he give a thought to inviting to this country next year President Cardoso, the new anglophile President of Brazil, who would help considerably with the development of that theme?

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I congratulate my hon. Friend on instigating the debate last week which went in some depth into our relationship with Brazil. To elaborate slightly today, what he says about trade is absolutely right. United Kingdom exports to Brazil have reached record levels, exceeding £500 million in 1994 and up 56 per cent. this year. We also have an investment programme in Brazil worth £1.93 billion, and we signed an investment promotion and protection agreement in July 1994, demonstrating the depth of our commitment to that country.

With regard to the visit, I regret that I cannot give any specifics to my hon. Friend, but Her Majesty's Government very much hope that President Cardoso will visit us again, as he did for the world war 2 celebrations.

Mr. Purchase: Should it not be a feature of our developing relationship with Brazil constantly to draw attention to the growing difference between wealth and poverty there, which can be witnessed on the streets of Rio and, indeed, to the environmental problems that are

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developing as a result of the massive industrialisation and privatisation programmes, as witnessed by the state of the waterways, on which one can almost walk due to the effluent that is discharged into them? Is not it right that, in our relationships with such countries, particularly Brazil, we should emphasise the problems that arise?

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: The hon. Gentleman is right. We must not lose sight of the conditions of the poor in Brazil, particularly the street children, and of other human rights abuses, which are, of course, not limited to Brazil, but are a problem in many areas of Latin America. We concentrate on such matters in discussions with the Brazilian authorities. We also try to offer assistance in solving the problem of the Brazilian street children.

Former Yugoslavia

17. Mr. Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's current policy towards the states making up the former Yugoslavia. [36869]

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: Our policy has three aims: to save lives, to prevent the spread of the conflict, and to draw the parties away from fighting and towards a negotiated settlement.

Mr. Hughes: Further to earlier questions, can the Minister assure us that, as well as dealing with immediate crisis areas, which are the subject of particular attention, the Government, with all their partners both European and transatlantic, are seeking to ensure that all the other areas of the former Yugoslavia are subject to the same level of diplomatic interest so that, if there can be resolution in Bosnia, there can soon be a clear resolution in the whole of the former Yugoslavia for all time?

Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I can certainly assure the hon. Gentleman that we are doing our best to assist the peace process, not only in Bosnia, but throughout the former Yugoslavia. I visited Macedonia, Kosovo and Bosnia only two weeks ago, so I very much hope that we shall be able to make progress. Of course, the Bosnian question is critical to the future of the whole of the former Yugoslavia and we must concentrate on solving that appalling problem.

Bosnia

18. Mr. Wicks: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Bosnia. [36870]

Mr. Rifkind: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave earlier.

Mr. Wicks: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that, just as 50 years ago, Nazi war criminals were brought before a tribunal and properly judged, so today there should be no hiding place for those who have initiated war crimes, be it the policy of mass rapes, of murder or of frank genocide? Can he reassure the House that the Government are giving resources and support to the war crimes tribunal and that, however senior within their regimes those people may be, justice will be done?

Mr. Rifkind: As the hon. Gentleman knows, a number of individuals have appeared and are appearing before such tribunals. Warrants have been issued against Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic, which shows that even

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those at the most senior level in the Bosnian Serb hierarchy are subject to the laws to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

Know-how Funds

19. Mr. Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new proposals he has to extend the scope of the know-how funds in the Baltic states and Georgia. [36872]

Mr. Rifkind: The know-how fund will continue to provide rapid and flexible assistance to the reform process in the Baltic states. During the visit of Mr. Shevardnadze, the President of Georgia, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced the doubling of know-how fund assistance to his country--to US$2 million.

Mr. Flynn: Is the Secretary of State impressed by the lessons from the Baltic states on the effect of the devolution of power to the state of Latvia, which has a smaller population than Scotland, and Estonia, which has a smaller population than Wales? Having learnt that lesson, will he note the great value of the know-how fund in precisely targeting projects there and providing pump-priming to them? Will he continue with the very fine work initiated in Georgia, which is more at peace than it has been for many years, to ensure that country the same benefits from the know-how fund?

Mr. Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman would be slightly unwise to describe Latvia's new status as being the result of a policy of devolution. That is not how most people would describe what happened to the old Soviet Union. The know-how fund is a most valuable way to assist reform in those countries. I believe that it has been very warmly welcomed.

Indo-British Partnership

20. Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department is doing to maintain the impetus of the Indo-British partnership. [36873]

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Mr. Hanley: We are actively involved in ensuring that the impetus of the Indo-British partnership is maintained through a targeted series of trade missions and ministerial exchanges. In the first half of this year alone, United Kingdom exports to India have increased by 20 per cent--that is on top of 20 per cent. last year--and UK investment approvals by almost 50 per cent.

Mr. Spring: Does my right hon. Friend agree that our growing commercial links with India will be further boosted by the recent cut in Export Credits Guarantee Department rates and that our relationship with India on so many levels has never been so excellent?

Mr. Hanley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When the Indo- British partnership was established by the two Prime Ministers in January 1993, few would have thought that it the past two and a half years would have such a glowing history. Total bilateral trade is up by nearly 50 per cent. in those two years. UK exports to India now stand at £1.3 billion. Imports are up 18 per cent. and I mentioned our record on exports.

UK investment in India has increased tenfold from 1992 to 1994 but my hon. Friend is also right that to say that, at many different levels, we have an excellent relationship with India; long may that continue.

BILL PRESENTED

Disabled Persons Civil Rights Commission

Ms Liz Lynne, supported by Mr. Archy Kirkwood, Mr. David Chidgey, Mr. Matthew Taylor, Mr. A. J. Beith, Mr. David Rendel, Mr. Nigel Jones, Mr. Don Foster, Mr. Charles Kennedy and Mrs. Diana Maddock, presented a Bill to establish a Human Rights Commission with comprehensive responsibility for enforcing, monitoring and providing advice on the civil rights of disabled people to ensure equal access to transport, education, employment, goods and services and public life: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3 November, and to be printed. [Bill 180.]

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