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House of Commons
Tuesday 17 October 1995
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Saint Paul's Churchyard Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
London Local Authorities (No. 2) Bill
[Lords] ( By Order ) Order for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered tomorrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
EDUCATION
Class Sizes
1. Mrs. Helen Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what estimate she has made of the number of primary school children being taught in classes of over 30 in the current academic year. [35990]
The Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Mrs. Gillian Shephard): Figures for the current academic year are not available
Mrs. Jackson: Figures for the current academic year are available in my constituency, because I have contacted every primary school head teacher. They show that children in 96 out of 187 primary school classes-- more than 50 per cent. of them--will start the school year in classes of 30 or more. Will the Secretary of State say whether she believes that there is a link between the quality of education offered and the size of a primary school class? If she agrees that there is a link, what will she do about it --
Madam Speaker: Order. We are not in debate; this is Question Time.
Mrs. Shephard: I have said often enough in this House that I accept that a very large class may be difficult for a teacher to manage. The chief inspector of schools, however, consistently reports no link between class size and attainment. He also consistently reports that what matters is the quality of teaching. That is why I greatly welcome the recent conversion of Opposition Members to supporting improved standards in schools, despite their voting record of having opposed every measure to improve standards of the past 16 years.
Mr. Alison: Does my right hon. Friend agree that overcrowded school premises can inhibit a school's
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excellence as much as overcrowded classes? Will she look with special sympathy at proposals, soon to reach her, to rebuild or expand Monk Fryston Church of England primary school in my constituency? Built for 44 children, it is now crammed with 126 of them, in more temporary classrooms than original classrooms. Will she do her best to help that marvellous school move into a more expansive phase?Mrs. Shephard: My right hon. Friend has been consistently assiduous in pressing the case for a capital allocation to Monk Fryston school, and I am grateful to him. I understand that the North Yorkshire local education authority has included an element for the school in this year's capital bid. Clearly I can give my right hon. Friend no more reassurance than to say that I will judge any such bid against our criteria to ensure that resources are fairly distributed.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: If it is acceptable for primary schools to have classes of more than 30, why is it not acceptable for preparatory schools--the junior equivalents of public schools--to which the rich can send their children? Why should those schools be able to have 15 in a class while numbers in the state sector are double that? Does it not show that the Government are interested only in privilege in education?
Mrs. Shephard: On the contrary, we believe in choice, and in choice for everyone. The Opposition believe in choice for their Front Benchers and a firm march back to the 1960s for everyone else.
Literacy and Numeracy
2. Mr. Simon Coombs: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what progress has been made in improving literacy and numeracy in schools. [45991]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Mrs. Cheryl Gillan): Raising standards of literacy and numeracy is at the heart of our school reforms. The chief inspector of schools has confirmed that our reforms are improving the quality of education.
Mr. Coombs: Does my hon. Friend agree that literacy and numeracy are still the keys to success in later life for young people? In that context, what steps does her Department propose to take further to improve standards of reading, writing and speaking English, and of adding and subtracting numbers?
Mrs. Gillan: My hon. Friend is right. Only last week, we set out new measures for raising standards of written and spoken English in schools and the workplace across the country. Communication skills are vital for career prospects and the Government's initiatives on spoken English qualifications emanate from discussions and consultations with a wide range of people, including business, the media, unions, voluntary bodies and educators. We are delighted that Trevor McDonald has agreed to chair the steering group and we look forward to developments in this sector.
Mr. Marek: The Minister will know that class sizes in public and preparatory schools are on average half as
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small as those in state schools. Will she make a connection between class sizes and achieving higher standards in numeracy and literacy?Mrs. Gillan: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is inviting me down a route that I should not care to follow, but the House should know that Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools has confirmed that, notably, the national curriculum and testing are already helping to raise overall education standards, and we can expect a steady rise in standards as more pupils benefit from our reforms.
Nursery Education
3. Sir Thomas Arnold: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment if she will make a further statement about her plans for the expansion of nursery education. [35992]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Mr. Robin Squire): I am delighted to announce that Kensington and Chelsea, Wandsworth and Westminster have confirmed their decision to take part in the first phase of the voucher scheme, beginning in April 1996. Others are considering the issue and I hope to be able to add to that list in the near future.
Sir Thomas Arnold: Will my hon. Friend confirm that when he has completed his consultation exercise on quality assurance he will promote a policy of good education, good quality and good value for money?
Mr. Squire: I most certainly confirm what my hon. Friend seeks. The aim of the scheme, which will apply to every local education authority from April 1997, is to ensure the quality of education delivered to pre-fives and to extend the opportunity of nursery education to all four-year-olds who do not have it.
Mr. Don Foster: Given the recent debate about levels of crime, does the Minister agree that a proven connection exists between high-quality, early-years education and lowering juvenile crime? If he does, would it not have been better to introduce a system of proper, high-quality, early-years education for all three and four-year-olds instead of the cumbersome and bureaucratic voucher system?
Mr. Squire: I think that I can say no to most of the hon. Gentleman's question, but I am prepared to concede that one of the many elements claimed for early school education is that it may reduce subsequent delinquency.
I disagree fundamentally with the hon. Gentleman about vouchers. Only vouchers will give parents choice in their child's pre-school education, including parents who may have only one opportunity. Secondly--I do not wish to outstay my welcome, Madam Speaker--any money channelled through block grants to local authorities is by no means guaranteed to be spent on the sector that he has identified.
Sir Alan Haselhurst: Does my hon. Friend share my regret that Essex county council appears, as a matter of policy, to have refused even to take part in the trials that we have initiated?
Mr. Squire: I have been disappointed by the response of a number of local education authorities, all of which have been invited to take part and all of which, by
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definition, will have four-year-olds whose parents will be unable to secure pre-school education for their child. They would have had a better chance of doing so if they had been in phase one, so I share my hon. Friend's dismay.Mr. Kilfoyle: Given the Secretary of State's failure to involve a nationally representative cross-section of authorities in the pilot scheme and her further failure to set clear targets for access to nursery education for three and four-year-olds, will the Minister tell us which agency is being charged with looking after the voucher scheme?
Mr. Squire: On the hon. Gentleman's last point, he will have to wait but a short while longer for the announcement to be made. On the central issues, the hon. Gentleman will have to recognise that some authorities are not taking part because they have been misled by him and others and have been persuaded to give first priority not to parents but to political dogma.
Mr. Hawkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the chief attractions to parents of four-year-olds of the new plan to expand nursery education is that no less than £185 million of entirely new money is being added to the education budget for that? Will he confirm that there is great enthusiasm for the provision of nursery education and for the expansion of choice and diversity? Will he join me in paying tribute to the expansion of the education provision in playgroups run by the Pre-School Playgroups Association?
Mr. Squire: I willingly confirm the figure quoted by my hon. Friend and, like him, I welcome developments within the Pre-School Alliance. The large number of letters to the Department from parents who want to know why their authority is not taking part from 1996 shows that both Opposition parties are risking considerable unpopularity.
Labour Statistics
4. Mr. Wicks: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what proportion of men aged (a) 55 to 59 and (b) 60 to 65 years are in employment. [35993]
Mrs. Gillan: At spring 1995, the proportion of men aged 55 to 59 in employment was 66.3 per cent. and 40.8 per cent. for those aged 60 to 65 years.
Mr. Wicks: Does the Minister agree that the fact that one in three men in their late fifties is out of work represents a huge waste of human potential and is bad news for the economy? Is it right that so many men who are still relatively young are thrown on to a human scrapheap? Do the Government have any proposals to get Britain back to work?
Mrs. Gillan: The hon. Gentleman should know that all age groups have benefited from the expansion of employment opportunities under this Government and that the fastest growth has been among those over 50. Among men aged 50 to 59, 66.3 per cent. are in employment, compared with the EC average of 63 per cent. Among men aged 60 to 64, the 45 per cent. figure compares with an EC average of 31 per cent. I am continuing my campaign to assist older workers to realise their potential and to play a full part in the labour market in a way that
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meets their needs and those of employers. The Government are taking action today. We are not just talking about promises of legislation way into the future which will not deal with the current problem.Sir Sydney Chapman: As someone who this very day has crossed the threshold between the two age groups mentioned in the question, my hon. Friend will understand that I am taking an increasing interest in tackling the problems of agism. I congratulate my hon. Friend on her recent initiative. May I suggest that it is far better to tackle the problem through her friendly persuasion rather than attempting to do so by legislation?
Mrs. Gillan: I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House would like to take this opportunity to wish my hon. Friend a very happy birthday. He is only halfway there since we know that Madame Calment in France has achieved the great age of 120 years and 238 days. My hon. Friend has a long way to go.
During the recess I was able to make three new announcements on our campaign for older workers. First, I announced a new booklet targeted at recruitment agencies, which will be published before Christmas. Secondly--
Madam Speaker: Order. I cannot allow such long answers to questions, particularly since the hon. Lady seems to be making a statement. Questions and answers are becoming longer and we are not making the progress on which I insist. Will the hon. Lady complete her answer?
Mrs. Gillan: First, there is to be a new booklet aimed at recruitment agencies; secondly, advice will be given to recruitment advertising agencies; and thirdly, the undertaking of a comprehensive survey--
Ms Harman: Does the Minister agree that unfairness and discrimination should have no place in today's world of work? Does she further agree that it is wrong to sack someone or to reject a job application solely on the ground of age? If so, why will not she take the simple step of making age discrimination in employment unlawful?
Mrs. Gillan: I shall not take lectures from the hon. Lady on this subject. Her policies are full of rhetoric. I have referred to three measures that I announced earlier this year, which propose positive steps to counteract the problems now, rather than talking about vague promises of what may be done in future.
Mr. John Marshall: Does my hon. Friend agree that the kernel of her answer is the figures for other European countries? Would not the adoption of the social chapter and a national minimum wage increase the number of old people out of work in the same way as it would increase youth unemployment?
Nursery Education
5. Mr. Bennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment how many three and four-year-olds started in nursery schools this September. [35994]
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Mr. Robin Squire: Information about the number of three and four- year-olds in school is collected centrally in January. Provisional figures show that in January 1995, 52,600 three and four-year-olds were in maintained nursery schools.
Mr. Bennett: Does the Minister accept that many parents of three and four-year-olds would like their children to be in nursery school, but are denied places? Did not even Lady Thatcher, back in 1972, commit the Conservative party to providing nursery education for all three and four- year-olds? Is not it a tragedy that, 23 years later, that has not been achieved? The Government are producing a smokescreen of vouchers to cover up the fact that they are not prepared to carry out even Lady Thatcher's commitment.
Mr. Squire: The hon. Gentleman echoes others on the Opposition Benches in not being keen on parental choice, but that is no surprise to us. The answer to the substance of his question is: let us get universal provision for four-year-olds up and running properly, after which we can consider other aspects. The hon. Gentleman and his party are very free with spending commitments from time to time. The Government have made a firm commitment on four-year-olds and we will stick by it.
Sir Jim Spicer: Is my hon. Friend aware that within one day of the announcement of the voucher scheme, Liberal-controlled Dorset county council arbitrarily said that it wanted nothing to do with it? Since then it has been havering in its decision. Will he undertake to give the council as long as possible to decide one way or the other? If it does not decide to join the pilot scheme, when my hon. Friend comes to Dorset on 27 October will he lay the blame fairly and squarely on the council for not consulting governors and head teachers?
Mr. Squire: As my hon. Friend and the House know, because of the current legislative position the Government were required to ask for volunteers. Provided that my hon. Friend races from the Chamber at the appropriate time, contacts his local authority and makes it clear that it must act quickly, it could still be brought into phase one. It will, like all other authorities, be brought into phase two, but that will be too late for the parents of four-year-olds in the coming year.
Teachers' Pensions Agency
6. Mr. Milburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment if he will make a statement on the future of the Teachers' Pensions Agency. [35995]
Mr. Robin Squire: We invited expressions of interest in June for a contract to administer the teachers' superannuation scheme. We are now considering whether to invite certain companies to tender for a contract. We expect to inform the House of our conclusions shortly.
Mr. Milburn: Does the Minister accept that if privatisation of the agency's functions goes ahead, it will not only threaten one of Darlington's key employers but will undermine the impartial pensions service currently received by more than 1 million teachers in this country? Will he explain to the House why, despite meeting all the targets set for them by Ministers, hard-working staff at the agency were denied the right to bid against private competitors to run the service? What assurances can he
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now give both the staff at the agency and those directly employed by his Department in Darlington about their future job prospects?Mr. Squire: As the hon. Gentleman knows, considerable discussions have been held, including those that I had with staff, and I fully understand that uncertainty is alarming some members of staff. In fairness, as I hope the hon. Gentleman recognises, whether or not we finally decide that the scheme could be contractorised, there will still be--even in the public sector if it remains in the public sector--a need to find further efficiency savings.
I see no reason why the management of the scheme--of course, there is no fund as such--should in any way jeopardise pensions or in any way lead to a lower standard of service. Indeed, one of the requirements that we would make if we proceeded would be that service should be at least as good as, if not better than, at present.
Mr. Devlin: I applaud the Minister for seeking savings on behalf of the taxpayer, but I remind him that the superannuation scheme is highly complex. It would be prudent if we were at least to allow the work force an opportunity to meet targets and to provide the service in competition with the private sector.
Mr. Squire: My hon. Friend's concerns--no doubt some of his constituents work at the agency--are well noted. As I made clear in my main answer, although at this stage I cannot announce whether we shall move out to the private sector, it should be stressed for the benefit of the House and for those who are expressing concern that the Darlington office has considerable attractions. We are advised that existing staff would transfer to any future contractor under legislation, and there would self-evidently be an advantage of continuity if another private sector body were brought in to administer the scheme from the same site.
Industrial Links
7. Mr. Mans: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what the Government are doing to encourage links between schools and industry. [35996]
Mrs. Gillian Shephard: The Government continue to promote a wide range of activities, both departmentally and with other organisations, aimed at developing closer links between schools and industry.
Mr. Mans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the support that British Aerospace gives schools in my part of Lancashire sets an example that should be followed by other firms? Will she do all that she can to encourage other firms to do precisely that?
Mrs. Shephard: I am aware that British Aerospace, in backing the setting up of technology colleges, is giving a great deal of support to this area of educational work. Although I am absolutely delighted by British Aerospace's commitment, 200 industrial sponsors are backing 101 technology colleges and six language colleges which have been approved. Their support amounts to £11 million of sponsorship.
Mrs. Clwyd: Has the Minister looked at the recent health and safety statistics on accidents at work, which
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show an increase in accidents in manufacturing industry among school-age children? When will the Government act to enforce the law to end the scandal of 1.5 million school-age children working illegally in Britain?Mrs. Shephard: The Government cannot condone any kind of illegal practices in employment. If the hon. Lady would like to send me details, they will be looked at.
Sir Donald Thompson: Does my right hon. Friend agree that teachers benefit just as much as pupils from links with industry?
Mrs. Shephard: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. More than 160,000 teachers have taken industry placements since 1989.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: Given that both schools and colleges are involved in providing academic and vocational training, does the Minister agree that we need a new partnership--not competition--between schools, colleges of further education, training and enterprise councils and industry so that they can provide the best quality of training for 16 to 18 -year-olds in a highly competitive job environment? If extra resources are necessary to deliver that partnership, will she make them available?
Mrs. Shephard: I shall not make any promises today on extra public expenditure, but the hon. Gentleman is right. There should be a productive partnership between training and enterprise councils, colleges and schools in given areas. Occasionally that spills over into extremely fierce competition, which usually results in benefits for the young people involved, but a careful eye must be kept on it.
Class Sizes
8. Mr. Khabra: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what research her Department has undertaken on the effect of class size on education standards. [35998]
Mrs. Gillian Shephard: We continue to monitor research on Ofsted evidence in this area.
Mr. Khabra: The Minister has given a very unsatisfactory reply. May I draw her attention to the comments of Duncan Graham, the former chairman and chief executive of the National Curriculum Council, who is reported in the press as saying that
"the national curriculum could not be delivered properly in classes of more than 35 and children in groups of 40 and over were `getting a raw deal'"?
We are already nearly 10,000 teachers short of the number required to maintain class sizes. Will the Minister deal with these fundamental questions? I should like a positive response.
Mrs. Shephard: Classes are not too large to deliver the national curriculum effectively. That is not only my view but that of the chief inspector. Clearly, the national curriculum is now slimmer than it was when Mr. Graham was chairman of the National Curriculum Council. I repeat that the quality of teaching depends on the quality of teachers, not class size.
Mr. Pawsey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Government's education reforms have done much to
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improve the quality and standard of state education? Does she agree, however, that an increase in class sizes may jeopardise those reforms? May I therefore ask her to redouble her efforts to persuade her Cabinet colleagues to fund in full the next teachers' pay award?Mrs. Shephard: My hon. Friend is an inspiration and support, as always. He will know that at this time of year it is normal for members of the Cabinet to be engaged in vigorous debate.
Mr. Blunkett: It sounds as though we have another convert on our hands.
Does the Secretary of State agree that when the Deputy Prime Minister said last week that it was necessary to allow 60,000 children to "escape", as he put it, from the inadequacy of inner-city education, he was making the biggest indictment possible of 16 years of Conservative government? If £220 million is available, should not it go to lowering class sizes for 1.5 million children in infant schools or 7 million children in our state system, not merely to allowing 60,000 children to escape Tory incompetence?
Mrs. Shephard: It really is time that Labour Members stopped perpetuating the fiction that they are remotely interested in raising standards in our schools. They have consistently opposed every standard- raising measure that has gone through the House. The opposition of Labour Members to choice, diversity of provision and excellence is well known and well documented; so is their principal motivation of class envy. All those factors are well illustrated in their desire to end the assisted places scheme, which provides real opportunities for children from poorer families. Sadly, the Labour party is the enemy of aspiration.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, despite all the huffing and puffing by the Labour party, pupil-teacher ratios have fallen substantially--from 19:1 to 18: 1--since it was in office, that over the same period the number of support staff in our schools has vastly increased, and that how classes are organised within that ratio is entirely a matter for the head teacher?
Mrs. Shephard: My hon. Friend is right, as always. Class size statistics tell us nothing about how teachers now work and how pupils learn.
Mr. Beggs: Does the Secretary of State agree that, irrespective of class sizes, the class teacher's ability to identify through early assessment the special needs of individual children, and the provision of individual help, will play a major part in raising standards?
Mrs. Shephard: Indeed, assessment and testing at all stages throughout a pupil's career are extremely important, and our nursery initiative will enable us to examine carefully what children can achieve when they reach primary school.
Dr. Spink: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when the Education Select Committee visited Japan it found that in some subjects standards were higher than in this country, yet that class sizes were invariably much higher than in this country? Does she not conclude from that evidence that it is the quality of teaching and the involvement of
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parents that dictates achievement and outcome, and that those are the areas that we should address most aggressively?Mrs. Shephard: Yes, I am happy that the Select Committee's visit to Japan confirmed my conviction that it is the quality of teaching that matters.
School Budgets
9. Mr. Tipping: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what representations she has received about the level of school budgets in 1996-97. [35999]
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Mr. Eric Forth): Funding for schools in 1996-97 is currently under consideration in the public expenditure survey. As part of that process, my right hon. Friend has received the views of the local authority associations and other interested parties.
Mr. Tipping: Will the Minister listen carefully, especially to the views of parents? Does he understand their concerns and will he respond positively to them? Does he realise that parents in, say, Nottinghamshire are alarmed that there are 350 fewer teachers in schools this term than last term, and that there are real worries that there will be 2,300 fewer teachers in the east midlands next year? Should we not invest in education and the future rather than cutting expenditure?
Mr. Forth: I am not surprised that parents in the hon. Gentleman's constituency have expressed alarm at their county council's conduct of local education matters. I should have thought that they would want to examine carefully his county's disposition of surplus school places, for example, as well as the priority that it has or has not given to education, and the extent of its non-education expenditure. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is urging parents to ask their county councillors searching questions about how far the council reflects those parents' needs.
Mr. Neil Hamilton: Does my hon. Friend agree that size is not everything, and that what is done with an education budget can be just as important? Is he aware that in Japan less than 4 per cent. of public expenditure goes to education, compared with more than 5 per cent. in this country, so there is no necessary link between how much is spent on education and what is achieved with the money?
Mr. Forth: My hon. Friend is right; none of us is sizeist. The point is how effectively the money is used. There is no proven demonstrable correlation between the amount spent per pupil anywhere in the country and the educational outcomes achieved. My hon. Friend has done well to undermine and expose the glib assertion that there is necessarily a causal connection between the amount spent and educational outcomes.
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