| Home Page |
Column 549
House of Commons
Monday 26 June 1995
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
NATIONAL HERITAGE
Dance and Skating Centres
1. Mr. Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage, what consideration has been given to the establishment of (a) a national dance centre and (b) a national skating centre; and if he will make a statement. [28742]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Iain Sproat): Under the long-standing arm's-length principle for arts funding and development, it is for the Arts Council to formulate strategies for each of the various art forms, including dance. The establishment of a national skating centre is primarily a matter for the sport's governing bodies to consider.
Mr. Hughes: I am grateful to the Minister. I am sure that his mind is on sports other than dance and skating at the moment.
Mr. Hughes: As has been said from the Opposition Front Bench, there may be some thin ice around. As the work of Government has to go on, will the Minister confirm that, given that the proposal for a national skating centre in Derby has fallen through, the Government would have no objection to the proposal being worked up for a combined dance and skating centre, neither of which we have, in the London docklands? [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. I think that hon. Members are aware that they should not pass between the hon. Member who is speaking and the Chair. The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) knows much better than that.
Mr. Faulds: May I apologise immediately, Madam Speaker? Old age and the stick create strange circumstances. Do forgive me.
Mr. Sproat: I have not had a chance to look at the documents to which the hon. Gentleman referred, but I will certainly do so and let him know what I think.
Regional Theatre
2. Mr. Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what plans he has to meet the chair of the Yorkshire and Humberside arts board to discuss the implications of the Arts Council's consultative paper on regional theatre. [28743]
Column 550
The Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Stephen Dorrell): I plan to meet the chairmen of the regional arts boards on 28 June.
Mr. Battle: Can I tell the Minister that Leeds really is the artistic capital of the north now? We have Opera North and the Northern School of Contemporary Dance, and the West Yorkshire Playhouse, which has achieved national standards and pioneered plays that are put on nationally; its education and community policies are an example for the rest of the country. As I am sure the Minister is aware, however, the funding arrangements mean that, although the West Yorkshire Playhouse is a centre of regional excellence, it does not even get the support that national theatres are getting and as a result might well not be able to continue as such in the future. When will the funding arrangements acknowledge the work that it has done and ensure that it gets due rewards?
Mr. Dorrell: I gladly join the hon. Gentleman in paying credit to the work of the various companies in Leeds that he listed, in particular the West Yorkshire Playhouse. It is indeed a regional centre of excellence that is recognised as producing works of a national standard, which often move on from Leeds to other theatres elsewhere in the country. The only element of the success story that the hon. Gentleman neglected to mention is the fact that the West Yorkshire Playhouse is in receipt of just over £840,000 in support from Arts Council funds--a figure that has been increased by £50,000 in the present year.
Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Warley, East will be in order if he wants to go to his usual seat now.
Mr. Faulds: Thank you. I am obliged for your consideration, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Fisher: Does the Secretary of State accept the view of the Green Paper that, with the exception of various successful companies such as the West Yorkshire Playhouse, regional theatre is on the whole
"on the brink of an irreversible spiral of decline",
and that good theatres, such as Cheltenham, Salisbury and Farnham, are
"closing for months on end because they cannot afford to stay open"?
Has he read the Green Paper and does he intend to respond to what is, on any analysis, a damning criticism of the Government's 16 years of care--or lack of care--for our theatres?
Mr. Dorrell: Yes, I have read the Green Paper. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's assertion that it suggests that there is a uniform picture of decay within regional theatre. It points out that there are some real success stories in regional theatre, of which the West Yorkshire Playhouse is one and the recently revived Birmingham Repertory theatre is another. Of course, some theatres will always do better than others. It would be wrong for the Government to react to the Green Paper at this stage as it was put out by the Arts Council for discussion within the theatre world. Each regional arts board is conducting a discussion within its region and two national discussion meetings have been arranged during the process, which closes on 30 July. Once that process is over, it will be for the Arts Council to draw conclusions from the discussion process that it initiated, and I look forward to reading those conclusions.
Column 551
Compulsory Competitive Games
3. Mr. Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what is his Department's policy on compulsory competitive games at schools. [28744]
Mr. Sproat: I believe that children must take part in competitive sport in schools within and beyond curriculum time. This will be a key element in the Government's sports policy statement, which will be published shortly.
Mr. Miller: Is the Minister saying that we are to get that long- awaited White Paper? Does he agree that an important element of that statement should be opportunity, not restriction? Will the Government make a genuine commitment to the opportunity to take part in sport in all schools? Does the Minister agree that the facilities available in many schools are less than adequate, especially given what is happening today down the road at Wimbledon and up the road at Lords?
Mr. Sproat: Yes, I can certainly say that it is our prime intention to increase the opportunity for more children to take part in sport at school. I agree that some schools are short of facilities and I am glad to say that the national lottery will help to provide more facilities where those are for both the school and the wider community.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend refer to the national lottery. Is he aware that, although games facilities in schools are good, they will be even better if they are used in conjunction with the wider community? Is he aware that Central Lancaster high school in my constituency has applied for funding for a multi-purpose sports facility on its premises in a deprived area of Lancaster, but that it must raise no less than £350, 000, which is 35 per cent? Could that figure be more flexible, or could assistance be given to deprived areas?
Mr. Sproat: The answer to the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) is yes. I did not know of the application that the school in my hon. Friend's constituency is making, but I shall draw her remarks to the chairman of the Sports Council. I assure her that the 35 per cent. is only an indicative percentage and that at this very moment the Sports Council is considering whether it could be smaller in certain cases.
Mr. Chris Smith: We know from the Prime Minister on Saturday that he is about to launch a new policy initiative on sport in schools. Given this morning's news, he may need every new initiative that he can find. Does the Minister recognise that any such announcement will be worthless unless three guarantees can be given: first, that DES circular 909 will be withdrawn, as it has led directly to the sale of 5,000 school playing fields over the past 15 years; secondly, that there will be two hours of sport each week as part of the national curriculum; and, thirdly, that the whole range of physical recreation will be available, not just a small list of competitive team games? Will he now give those basic guarantees to the House?
Mr. Sproat: The hon. Gentleman must wait until the sports policy is published. He will then see what he will see.
Column 552
Mr. Simon Coombs: Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be pleasant to hear Labour councillors make a commitment to competitive sport in schools, given that their policies have damaged competitive sport over the years? Will my hon. Friend assure the House that he remains fully committed to the restoration and improvement of those sports pitches that remain, notwithstanding the loss of some of them over the years, and that the national lottery will enable their improvement so that competitive sport can be played in good conditions?Mr. Sproat: Yes, I can certainly give my hon. Friend the important assurance that he seeks. Like him, I look forward to receiving support from the Opposition as well as, I am sure, Conservative Members when we publish that important statement shortly.
Greta Hall, Keswick
4. Mr. Campbell-Savours: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what representations he has received on the future use of Greta hall in Keswick. [28745]
Mr. Campbell-Savours: Tomorrow, the trustees of the national heritage memorial fund will consider a grant application from the Lake Poets Society for purchase moneys to acquire the site of Greta hall in my constituency, which is a lakeland historic heritage site; it is the former home of Southey and Coleridge, the former haunt of Wordsworth and Shelley. Would the Minister be prepared discreetly to lend his support to that project, because it has major implications as a heritage centre and it would be especially useful to the university of the lakes when finally we get it off the ground?
Mr. Dorrell: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the national heritage memorial fund is independent of Government and, as I am sure that he would expect, support--discreet or otherwise--from the Government might not be helpful to any application that the heritage fund might consider.
Historic Buildings (Damage)
5. Mr. Dalyell: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what representations he has received in respect of damage caused to historic buildings in the care of the National Trust and the National Trust for Scotland, or otherwise regarding damage caused by the volume of visitors. [28746]
Mr. Sproat: I have received no such representations about damage caused to National Trust properties, nor about the volume of visitors, and I understand that neither has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland received such representations in respect of historic properties managed by the National Trust for Scotland.
Mr. Dalyell: The Minister will recollect from his previous incarnation as Member of Parliament for Aberdeen, South the beautiful mediaeval castle of Craigievar, for which the National Trust had to remove signposts and cease to advertise--rightly, in my
opinion--because of the structural problems caused by over-visitation. Is there not a general problem--or at least
Column 553
the danger--of destroying that which people come to see? In those circumstances, is any thought to be given to the financing of such properties and help to those, such as the National Trust for Scotland, who manage them?Mr. Sproat: Help for the Scottish trust is of course a matter for the Secretary of State for Scotland. Craigievar is a magnificent castle, and I gather that the number of visitors did cause certain of the floors and ceilings to become unsafe. That has now been put right. The National Trust for Scotland no longer promotes Craigievar and, as a result, the number of visitors in the past four years has decreased from about 33,000 to about 15,000. No doubt that experience will be taken into account by all those who manage such properties.
National Lottery
7. Mrs. Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement on the impact of the national lottery on good causes. [28748]
Mr. Dorrell: The national lottery is already having a major impact on sport, arts and heritage activity throughout the country. About £673 million has been raised for good causes by the lottery, and £95 million has been awarded to a total of 486 projects. I am today placing in the Libraries of both Houses a report giving details of the projects supported to date.
Mrs. Clwyd: As there is no longer a Secretary of State for Wales, may I ask the Minister to look sympathetically at the problems of the Welsh -based cancer charity, Tenovus, which has had to finish its own lottery because it could no longer sustain it? That lottery provided 50 per cent. of its income. May I ask him to consider the possibility of giving Tenovus, and charities like it, some type of compensation for the effect that the national lottery has obviously had on its activities?
Mr. Dorrell: The hon. Lady is wrong to say that there is no Secretary of State for Wales. Downing street made it clear this morning that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West (Mr. Hunt) is conducting the duties of the Secretary of State for Wales. On the hon. Lady's question about Tenovus, she will know that there is different experience in different parts of the charities world since the introduction of the national lottery. For example, the takings of the UK charities lottery, which operates a scratch-card lottery alongside Instants, have increased by roughly 50 per cent. since the introduction of the Instants game, so the suggestion that the national lottery has had a uniform effect on charities funding is simply not correct.
However, the Government recognise that the national lottery has an effect on those activities which operate alongside it, and that is why my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary is working with the charities world to ensure that we properly understand the effect of the lottery on charitable funding.
Mr. Waterson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, if he is looking for examples of good causes that have already benefited from the national lottery, he need look no further than Cavendish school in my constituency, which recently received notification of a grant of well over £200,000 for an activity centre and related activities?
Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend quotes one example from a list of nearly 500 valuable projects where lottery money
Column 554
is being used to enhance the level of provision for sports, arts and heritage activities in Britain, not to mention the support that will flow from the Charities Board and the imaginative range of projects that were listed, 10 days ago, for further assessment by the Millennium Commission.Mr. Faulds: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there are a number still of old-fashioned and moral Scots in the House, who vastly disapprove of public gambling and the appalling social consequences of such practices? Will he accept--not much of a hope with the modern Tory party-- that heritage and the arts should be a direct responsibility of Government and not of those who are tempted to buy scratch cards during the week?
Mr. Dorrell: I have seen lots of unlikely scenes in the House, but that of the hon. Gentleman as an advocate for old-fashioned moral Presbyterianism is a proposition that is entirely new to me. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the Government should continue to accept responsibility for funding for the arts and for sport activity in Britain is not controversial, because the Government have made it entirely clear that we intend to continue to observe our obligations in that regard.
The lottery has, however, unlocked a new source of funds--on a scale which has been offered by no British Government in history--for an activity which I had always thought the hon. Gentleman considered important. I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman would want to welcome new sources of support for an activity which he thinks, and certainly regularly says, is important.
Mr. John Marshall: Will my right hon. Friend consider reapportioning the proceeds of the national lottery so that more goes to charity, which currently gets only 8p out of every pound spent, and slightly less to some of high-falutin' projects associated with culture, theatre and other minority tastes?
Mr. Dorrell: The allocation of the money available from the national lottery for good causes was, of course, the subject of debate when the legislation establishing it went through the House. It is perfectly true that it can be reassessed, but to reassess it within three months of the beginning of the distribution process is a trifle previous.
Mr. Dafis: Although I welcome the Secretary of State's undertaking to examine the position of Tenovus, we are looking for a firmer undertaking than that. Is he aware that Tenovus has now made it clear that its research programmes, including a research programme conducted in my constituency at the university of Wales, Aberystwyth, will have to be discontinued unless it is able to obtain additional funding? Is he aware that Tenovus has prepared a checklist of six possibilities for changing the way in which moneys are distributed? Will he now undertake that at least one or more of those possibilities are implemented to ensure that Tenovus can continue to conduct its important research?
Mr. Dorrell: No. I have made it clear that we shall look at the effect of the national lottery on the charitable sector as a whole. We shall not seek to assess the performance of individual charities, because they are influenced by a wide range of factors, not least the individual choice of people who give money to charities.
Column 555
The hon. Gentleman would be wrong to believe --he certainly did not suggest it in his question--that the effect of the national lottery has been uniformly to undermine the effectiveness of charitable lotteries. That has not been the experience. The Government have said that we shall consider the effect of the national lottery on the charitable sector as a whole, but we certainly shall not look at its effect on individual charities, because they are affected by a wide range of factors, of which the national lottery is only one.8. Sir Fergus Montgomery: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what is his assessment of the national lottery's effect on the sporting culture of the United Kingdom. [28749]
Mr. Sproat: The national lottery represents a major boost for sport. So far, 35 different sports have benefited.
Sir Fergus Montgomery: Does my hon. Friend agree that the national lottery will give an enormous boost to sport in the United Kingdom because it will mean more new sports centres and sports scholarships and will encourage international athletes?
Mr. Sproat: My hon. Friend makes an extremely important series of points. So far, some 292 different projects around the country have benefited. When the lottery is operating to its fullest extent, we expect about an extra £320 million a year to go to sport.
Ms Eagle: Is the Minister aware of the increasing worries that a gambling culture is taking hold because of the scale of the national lottery, especially its prizes? Does he agree that that seems to have gone all the way to the top and affected the current incumbent of No. 10, who took an appalling gamble, which he looks set to lose, last Thursday?
Mr. Sproat: I do not agree with the latter part of the hon. Lady's comments. As to the first part, the lottery is benefiting not only sport-- to the tune, I hope, of some £320 million pounds a year--but the arts, charities, the built heritage and the millennium fund.
Mr. Hawkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is most important that this is new money that would not previously have gone towards sporting ventures? In particular, it gives an opportunity for us to provide new facilities for elite sport. We hope that the beginning of the rebuilding of our sporting excellence will be when England beat the West Indies later this afternoon.
Mr. Sproat: I hope that my hon. Friend is right in his latter prediction. As to facilities, sport has benefited so far to the tune of, I think, £45.22 million, most of which has gone to capital facilities. I look forward to seeing even that sum increased.
9. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what guidelines he is planning to introduce for national lottery funds to be used to enhance disabled people's opportunities in sport. [28750]
Mr. Sproat: My right hon. Friend drew attention to the importance of national lottery funded facilities being widely accessible to people with disabilities in a letter which he sent in June 1994 to the chairman of the
Column 556
distributing bodies covering his directions under section 26 of the National Lottery etc. Act 1993. No further guidance is planned.Mr. Cunningham: Is the Minister aware that the Secretary of State probably sent that letter to the organiser of the national lottery because I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman asking when action was going to be taken? While the Government are considering funding, will they also consider matching that funding pound for pound to help local authorities assist organisations, because it is going to be an extremely costly and slow process?
Mr. Sproat: As the hon. Gentleman will know, local authorities are usually, or very often, part of a partnership that puts a substantial part of the money towards any project that is partially funded by the lottery. What the hon. Gentleman wants is already happening most of the time.
Mr. Harry Greenway: Has my hon. Friend heard of the apparent distress caused to some people who have won as much as £17 million or £18 million on the lottery? Does he have any plans to limit the top win to £5 million, even if that means changing the rollover programme? Would that not make more money available for disabled sportsmen and everyone else?
Mr. Sproat: My hon. Friend raises an important point to which, I know, many people have directed their minds. However, the Government have no plans to do as he asks, for one simple reason. Experience has shown that the larger the jackpot, the more people buy tickets; the more tickets that are bought, the more money is available for the distributing bodies. The short answer to my hon. Friend's question is no.
Angling
10. Mr. Hain: To ask the Secretary of Statefor National Heritage what is his estimate of the number of people who participate in coarse, game and seaangling. [28751]
Mr. Sproat: According to a 1994 survey by the National Rivers Authority, some 2.3 million people participate in coarse angling in England and Wales,1.1 million in sea angling and 850,000 in game angling.
Mr. Hain: Is the Minister aware that representatives of millions of those anglers have greatly welcomed Labour's charter for anglers? Will he do the same and consider implementing its proposals? Is he aware that, in south Wales and elsewhere, there is concern about minewater pollution poisoning rivers and affecting angling, and that in Wales that concern will be intensified now that the Welsh Office is rudderless and leaderless?
Mr. Sproat: Problems in Wales are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West (Mr. Hunt), who is currently taking over the Secretary of State's duties in Wales.
As for Labour's paper, I read it with great interest. I thought it pretty fudgy and, in places, misleading. Anyone interested in field sports should think carefully about a party which says that it is cruel to hunt foxes but not to
Column 557
shoot pheasants and which I think is fishing for votes among anglers. Such a party should be regarded with extreme suspicion.Mr. McLoughlin: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government are committed to allowing people to follow all country sports and will take the necessary action to block any moves to stop people pursuing legal sports?
Mr. Sproat: What my hon. Friend says is absolutely and completely true. Our party remains a true friend to field sports.
Mr. Pendry: Although the figures given by the Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) are probably an underestimate, they still prove that angling is Britain's most popular participatory sport, yet the Sports Council's current level of grant to the three angling bodies is a mere £45,000. Recognising that the Government's stated aim during the passage of the National Lottery Act etc. 1993 was that they would not determine what the distributing bodies allocated for lottery grants, will the Minister urge the Sports Council to reassess its grants to sports such as angling, which are more in need of revenue money than the current capital money that is available? Angling needs are mainly in the form of education courses, especially for the young, women and the disabled and for the necessary support for our national angling teams.
Mr. Sproat: The Government remain a strong friend of angling, but it is for the Sports Council to decide how to spend its own money. I should be interested to know whether the Labour party proposes to recede from that long-established position.
National Lottery
13. Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of Statefor National Heritage which museums and art galleries have benefited from grants from national lottery heritagefunds. [28755]
Mr. Dorrell: I understand that 14 museums and galleries have so far benefited from lottery funds of some £2.34 million from the national heritage memorial fund. I am sure that my hon. Friend will in particular welcome the grant of £254,000 to the Buckinghamshire museum.
Mr. Lidington: Will my right hon. Friend accept the applause of many people from all party backgrounds in Aylesbury and the surrounding area for the generous grant which will help to provide funds for the Roald Dahl children's gallery in the Buckinghamshire county museum and art gallery? Does he agree that such a local cultural project, designed to provide education and entertainment, is exactly what the lottery funds are for?
Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Roald Dahl has particular connections with my hon. Friend's constituency, as he lived in Great Missenden. The project, which has been backed by the Buckinghamshire museum, involves the imaginative use of his characters to enhance understanding of the exhibits in the museum. Another point worth mentioning is that the grant ensures the continued use and protection of a grade II* listed building, so, from every possible point of view, it is a good illustration of the power of the national lottery.
Column 558
Mr. Gunnell: Now that we have a national coal mining museum for England--as the Secretary of State will know, it is in Yorkshire--will the funds be made available for that museum to acquire collections of art and historical documents associated with the mining industry?Mr. Dorrell: The answer is that the national heritage memorial fund will consider bids that are made to it. I cannot consider the hon. Gentleman's proposition in the abstract; it falls to the national heritage memorial fund and not to me to consider applications when they are submitted. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman should encourage the national coal mining museum, and other institutions in his constituency that may benefit from the national lottery, to submit bids to the relevant distributor body.
Dr. Spink: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, of the £9 billion that will be raised for good causes during the first licence period of the lottery, a significant amount of that money will be available to assist museums in the next seven years? Will he confirm also that, if the House had followed the policies of the Labour party, which was divided about the lottery, and the Liberals, who opposed it, that money would be denied to the museums?
Mr. Dorrell: My hon. Friend is right to point out the national lottery's power to unlock funds that no Government could have found from other sources. Historically, neither Labour nor Conservative Governments have provided money on that scale to sport, the arts and heritage activities.
The national lottery provides us with the opportunity to invest in the museum sector, among others. For example, the national heritage memorial fund has already made grants to the Ironbridge Gorge museum, which is a major museum illustrating the birthplace of the industrial revolution. It has also made a major grant to the Manchester museum of science and industry, which is a leading science and industry museum on the site of the world's first railway station. There are already many examples of the way in which the national heritage memorial fund has used lottery money to develop the museum sector and I am sure that that will continue into the future.
Windmills
14. Mr. Frank Cook: To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage how many windmills are listed buildings; and what is their exact location. [28756]
Mr. Dorrell: Until the statutory list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest is computerised next year, it is not practicable to identify separately those windmills that are listed.
Mr. Cook: I am somewhat disappointed by that answer, especially as the number of windmills in this country may have decreased in the past four days. I ask the Secretary of State to consider the thesis that national heritage is not only a question of the past, but a question of what we leave for the future. With the accelerating rate of development of new materials and new design techniques, the windmills that are being installed now are every bit as cherishable as those that were built in the past. Perhaps the Secretary of State will be able to convince people that they are not simply a blot on the landscape, as some misguided press representatives out of Downing street try to persuade the electorate.
Column 559
Mr. Dorrell: Individual windmills that are proposed for listing can be considered on a spot-listing basis. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there are windmills being erected now--by which he probably means wind power generators--which merit protection, I am sure that he will understand that they should be guided by the same rules that apply to every other structure: namely, we do not list many structures until they are more than 30 years old.Mr. Jacques Arnold: May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention, in compiling his list, to the working windmill on Meopham green in my constituency? It is not only a working windmill but it is unique in being the location at which the Meopham parish council holds its meetings. Whereas windmills use wind for good works, is that not a case of a windmill using hot air for extremely good works on behalf of the people of the parish of Meopham?
| Next Section
| Home Page |